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No Sheol is not in the New Testament - that is the Old Testament equivalent of hades.
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"Which" Hell, you ask? Apparently, there are several -but this is moot -and not germane to the question aboit the destination of the babies - is it??
Right -and wrong:
""No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:..."" --John 6:44 --so, GOD makes the 1st move -and choses you, but YOU also have a role to play --you must chose to accept or reject God.
I can't accept God with my heart. This was the lesson everyone should have learned from the Old Covenant but as you can see - many still didn't learn it. God says that He will put a new heart in us. God says the Carnal mind hates God. Yet you seem to believe the Carnal mind (of which God says hates Him) will suddenly choose Him. And you don't even seem to see the contradiction. What your preaching is co-savior theology. That is where you believe that your decision is a requirement for God to save you. You can say it any way you want and decry that you preaching co-savior theology but in the end if you believe your decision is required then that is exactly what your preaching.
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Otherwise, you'd be a robot -which you are not.
No, I would be a child. My children still make choices but I control the framework in which I let them make choices in. Therefore, I can cause them to choose what I desire them to choose. Its not about being robots - its about us being children. Surely, you don't believe your children have to ACCEPT you do they? Are you going to stop the small child that walks out the door mad or runs away from home?
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Yep - as I've cited Jn 6:44 above --Jesus chosing - the Father chosing --they think alike --all the same difference, and I agree you are right on this claim here.
Actually, you don't if you believe you are the one responsible for the choosing.
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Well, that's a 2-part process:
1. God chose to send Jesus as the ONLY perfect example & role model, which as part of this satisfies the legal requirements of His sacrifice of his WHOLE life (not JUST on the cross) --and--
2. We accept this, and give him credit where credit's due --or be disrepsectful and reject this offer from the Court of Heaven to accept the plea deal the prosecution is offering. your choice.
Again, your preaching that you choose God and not vice-versa. Your saying "we accept this and give him credit" is saying you choose Him. That is contrary to Scripture. God is the one that chooses.
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The babies will get such a choice -sometime -I don't know when -but sometime to satisfy the legal requirements of John 14:6, which says: ""Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.""
Everyone will come through Christ. No one to be excluded. There is no triumph in saving the righteous. Jesus came to save sinners and the greatest Triump is to save them all!!! And the greatest triump that can be imagined is just that and that will come to pass in due time.
...Again, your preaching that you choose God and not vice-versa. Your saying "we accept this and give him credit" is saying you choose Him. That is contrary to Scripture. God is the one that chooses...
One way to clear up your misunderstanding of my claim that we, humans, have a choise is to remind you of the passage that says "many are called, but few are chosen."
God calls many (if not all), but few are chosen -why would he not chose them if he called them? The only logical answer: They reject him.
Here are my cites to verify:
Matthew 20:16; Cf: Matthew 22:14, KJV: "for many be called, but fewchosen."
ONE MORE THING: You are saying that "God is the one that chooses" -He does make the 1st move, but GOD DOES NOT CHOSE HOW YOU REPLY.
Proof:
James 1:12-14 (King James Version)
12Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Let NO man (that refers to you, whether you're a man or woman: It is gender neutral) say that it is ONLY God that makes the choice regarding the tremptation --NO NO ==you are making your OWN choices -otherwise, you'd be a robot devoid of free will.
Since you are not, it is logical to clonclud -based both on ligic -and scripture -that I am right.
One way to clear up your misunderstanding of my claim that we, humans, have a choise is to remind you of the passage that says "many are called, but few are chosen."
God calls many (if not all), but few are chosen -why would he not chose them if he called them? The only logical answer: They reject him.
Here are my cites to verify:
Matthew 20:16; Cf: Matthew 22:14, KJV: "for many be called, but fewchosen."
ONE MORE THING: You are saying that "God is the one that chooses" -He does make the 1st move, but GOD DOES NOT CHOSE HOW YOU REPLY.
Proof:
James 1:12-14 (King James Version)
12Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Let NO man (that refers to you, whether you're a man or woman: It is gender neutral) say that it is ONLY God that makes the choice regarding the tremptation --NO NO ==you are making your OWN choices -otherwise, you'd be a robot devoid of free will.
Since you are not, it is logical to clonclud -based both on ligic -and scripture -that I am right.
No your wrong. Look at history brother. If you go back and look at the Old Testament you will see that the Israelites were God's people but who was the chosen? - it was the Levites - they were the chosen of the many to perform the priestly service. The same it is today. The chosen are those that shall comprise the Temple service in the New Covenant. See you think the many called was in vain as if God could do something in vain. Why in your understanding would God call some in vain? God knows the end from the beginning. Do you really think He would call some already knowing they wouldn't answer the calling? Of course not.
God is the one that does the choosing - even the first move and it is Him that owns the reply. You give carnal man way to much credit.
This post has me curious as to what happens to aborted fetus's. There are lots of folks quoting scripture here; let me ask, what does the Bible have to say about abortion and the aborted?
Current statistics show 75% of girls are sexually active before the age of 14. 40% of all children born in the US are now of single mothers. Number of abortions in the US total almost 1.4 million per year or somewhere around 3800 a day.
donsabi, There is a period during the Great White Throne Judgment when the "lost dead" are resurrected and given the opportunity to learn about God to make their decision. See my post #60 in this same thread.
No your wrong. Look at history brother. If you go back and look at the Old Testament you will see that the Israelites were God's people but who was the chosen? - it was the Levites - they were the chosen of the many to perform the priestly service. The same it is today. The chosen are those that shall comprise the Temple service in the New Covenant. See you think the many called was in vain as if God could do something in vain. Why in your understanding would God call some in vain? God knows the end from the beginning. Do you really think He would call some already knowing they wouldn't answer the calling? Of course not.
God is the one that does the choosing - even the first move and it is Him that owns the reply. You give carnal man way to much credit.
While God *does* chose us, he is not the only one -Scripture disagrees with you here:
Joshua 24:15, KJV:Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%2024:15&version=KJV
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
You ask: ""Do you really think He would call some already knowing they wouldn't answer the calling? Of course not.""
Based on plain common sense (regarding Free Will) -and based on the scripture I cited, I disagree with you here: Even THOUGH God knows some will chose wrongly, it is his justice that gives mankind the choice.
To deny mankind a choice is to deny free will.
Last edited by GordonWayneWatts; 01-27-2010 at 07:40 PM..
Reason: spelling + removing bad link & putting in right link to cite my sources
donsabi, There is a period during the Great White Throne Judgment when the "lost dead" are resurrected and given the opportunity to learn about God to make their decision. See my post #60 in this same thread.
That sounds right; Where is your post exactly?
I mean, on what page of this thread?
(I ask because I saw 10posts/ page, and I went to the top of page 6 & didn't see your post.)
While God *does* chose us, he is not the only one -Scripture disagrees with you here:
Joshua 24:15, KJV:Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%2024:15&version=KJV
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
You ask: ""Do you really think He would call some already knowing they wouldn't answer the calling? Of course not.""
Based on plain common sense (regarding Free Will) -and based on the scripture I cited, I disagree with you here: Even THOUGH God knows some will chose wrongly, it is his justice that gives mankind the choice.
To deny mankind a choice is to deny free will.
So based on your comments, you believe that the following:
1.) God knows the end from the very beginning
2.) Man must make the choice to choose God
3.) God knows that some wont choose Him from the very beginning
4.) God knows that some that don't choose Him will be tormented for the rest of eternity.
Or in Summary - you believe:
God knowing the end from the beginning brought some people into the world knowing they would NOT choose Him and that He would then get to torment them for the rest of Eternity.
I believe in God, accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, obey the 10 Commandments... but I don't belong to any church or denomination. My belief based on what I read in the Bible is that when we die we are unconscious until the resurrection. Nowhere in the Bible can you find the dead immediately goes to heaven or a burning "hell." The word "hell" simply means the grave. On the contrary, the Bible says the dead knows nothing. When Jesus raised Lazarus from death, it was like he was awakened from a deep sleep; in fact he did not give any fantastic account of an afterlife.
In REV 20 is John's vision of the future final resurrection of all humans in the Great White Throne Judgment. I believe the babies/fetus, the insane, the retarded, et.al., will be resurrected and have a chance to learn the truth (Books were opened)... they have free will and therefore will be given the choice to choose eternal life or death. At that time there will be rebels who will reject God even when they come face to face with him. God will never impose on anyone to live his way of love, peace, and cooperation... some will choose eternal death just like the unbelievers now in this World... whose names are not written in another book, the Book of Life.
_______________________ REV 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
So based on your comments, you believe that the following:
1.) God knows the end from the very beginning
2.) Man must make the choice to choose God
3.) God knows that some wont choose Him from the very beginning
4.) God knows that some that don't choose Him will be tormented for the rest of eternity.
Or in Summary - you believe:
God knowing the end from the beginning brought some people into the world knowing they would NOT choose Him and that He would then get to torment them for the rest of Eternity.
you ask: "So based on your comments, you believe that the following:"
answer: yes, but God's knowledge does not preclude, cancel, annul, or abrogate our free will.
Anyone who goes to hell, CHOOSES to go there. no one is twisting their arm, so they are without excuse. (God will, as some have said, give ALL a chance to chose -yes, even the little babies to whom *some* would deny such a choice. -LOL)
I realise it looks a little off-centre, but that's the full-colour reply for ease of emphasis & to look cool & have something to look back on later as not only educational & polite, but also 'fun'.
Last edited by GordonWayneWatts; 01-27-2010 at 09:07 PM..
Reason: spelling, fix formatting, colour (note the British spellings throughout -sense of honour here: I'm of British descent :-)
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Mankind *does* chose!
