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That is a good point - both vv 64 and 65 seem to hint that you are right.
But that interpretation would nullify this verse -which I mentioned a few pages back -mentioned again since you didn't address this:
Joshua 24:15, KJV: "...choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell..."
It would appear that God passes the ball to us - and we can choose to run it down field -or not.
No, think about what your saying. It isn't pick or choose a verse. Sure they APPEAR contradictory but you gotta look at what happened. God set forth to the Israelites to choose. He showed them that the Old Covenant of YOU Choosing God failed. That is why you see what appears to be contradictory verses. It isn't when you realize they are both part of two different covenants. God showed the Israelites that their way doesn't work.
No, think about what your saying. It isn't pick or choose a verse. Sure they APPEAR contradictory but you gotta look at what happened. God set forth to the Israelites to choose. He showed them that the Old Covenant of YOU Choosing God failed. That is why you see what appears to be contradictory verses. It isn't when you realize they are both part of two different covenants. God showed the Israelites that their way doesn't work.
So, are you saying we had free will in the Old Testament but we DON'T have Free Will now?
If that is true, then Moses was a person, but you and I are robots without free will.
Think about what you are saying: This would mean God is biased and treats us differently, but I think not.
Another thing: If we don't have Free Will, then why would God allow so many Bible writers to ask us to evangalize the world (Mark, chapter 16) or to not sin (1st John 2:1-2 and Romans, chapter 6) --or Jesus' own words:
"And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."--Mark 8:34, Holy Bible, KJV, Words if Jesus in red
If you are correct in your claims that god choses us thus denying us any free will, then it makes no sense for Jesus to even *call* us --If God has chosen us, then all this other fanfare is not needed.
Sure, God knows the back from the front, but does that mean you're a robot -or that the other implications are true?
So, are you saying we had free will in the Old Testament but we DON'T have Free Will now?
If that is true, then Moses was a person, but you and I are robots without free will.
Think about what you are saying: This would mean God is biased and treats us differently, but I think not.
Another thing: If we don't have Free Will, then why would God allow so many Bible writers to ask us to evangalize the world (Mark, chapter 16) or to not sin (1st John 2:1-2 and Romans, chapter 6) --or Jesus' own words:
"And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."--Mark 8:34, Holy Bible, KJV, Words if Jesus in red
If you are correct in your claims that god choses us thus denying us any free will, then it makes no sense for Jesus to even *call* us --If God has chosen us, then all this other fanfare is not needed.
Sure, God knows the back from the front, but does that mean you're a robot -or that the other implications are true?
This is deep -re-read it if need be.
No such thing as free will. No, not robots. Robots are made by men. My children are not robots but I don't let them do anything they choose and I forcefully choose to mold them as I see fit. You should visit a website called carm.org and see that they make some of the same arguments you make and have much to throw at us universalists. I invite you to do the same so you can see by the answer how unaffective their arguments are. But tell me what it makes no sense for Jesus to even "call" us? Nothing is about our fanfare. Nothing is about us - its all about Christ. Calvinist can't say the same - they believe it is ALL on you to CHOOSE God. They preach it is UP TO YOU!!!! Really, it is at the core of what they preach. I preach that it is 100 percent up to God - nothing is up to you. You exist by the will of God, every minute - not one second is your existence up to you or in your control.
I don't need to re-read it - I was already once an eternal torment preacher myself and then an annhilationist. So I already heard and preach the same arguments against universalists. I just couldn't stand on them when really facing their arguments in light of scripture.
No such thing as free will. No, not robots. Robots are made by men. My children are not robots but I don't let them do anything they choose and I forcefully choose to mold them as I see fit. You should visit a website called carm.org and see that they make some of the same arguments you make and have much to throw at us universalists. I invite you to do the same so you can see by the answer how unaffective their arguments are. But tell me what it makes no sense for Jesus to even "call" us? Nothing is about our fanfare. Nothing is about us - its all about Christ. Calvinist can't say the same - they believe it is ALL on you to CHOOSE God. They preach it is UP TO YOU!!!! Really, it is at the core of what they preach. I preach that it is 100 percent up to God - nothing is up to you. You exist by the will of God, every minute - not one second is your existence up to you or in your control.
I don't need to re-read it - I was already once an eternal torment preacher myself and then an annhilationist. So I already heard and preach the same arguments against universalists. I just couldn't stand on them when really facing their arguments in light of scripture.
the ramifications of a lack of free will are this:
You can do anything you want and not be 'at fault'.
Can you imagine some criminal telling the judge: "No, your honor, I had no choice in the matter; It was all up to GOD to choose whether I robbed this bank, assaulted these people, and cussed them out before the law was called on me. -- And, uh, God 'chose' wrongly."
Neither an earthly court nor a heavenly court would buy that malarkey, and neither do I.
(-: :-)
Last edited by GordonWayneWatts; 02-02-2010 at 02:06 AM..
Reason: spelling + add emotion :-)
babies, children, teeners, and all human beings- baptized or not- regardless of religion when they die are buried or burned to avoid contamination from disease.
Last edited by nicanorr; 02-02-2010 at 02:49 AM..
Reason: change buried to burned
babies, children, teeners, and all human beings- baptized or not- regardless of religion when they die are buried or burned to avoid contamination from disease.
Your analysis is very logical, Mr. Spock. (And quite literal.)
babies, children, teeners, and all human beings- baptized or not- regardless of religion when they die are buried or burned to avoid contamination from disease.
Well - you confirmed one "hell" by mentioning "buried" (ie: the grave AKA Sheol/Hades) and another "hell" in burning bodies (Gahenna). That's fully two thirds of all biblical hells.
the ramifications of a lack of free will are this:
You can do anything you want and not be 'at fault'.
Can you imagine some criminal telling the judge: "No, your honor, I had no choice in the matter; It was all up to GOD to choose whether I robbed this bank, assaulted these people, and cussed them out before the law was called on me. -- And, uh, God 'chose' wrongly."
Neither an earthly court nor a heavenly court would buy that malarkey, and neither do I.
(-: :-)
No, the Judge is the one doing the making in this case. More like this:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
No, the Judge is the one doing the making in this case. More like this:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(my guess would hypothesize that you *do* have free will, as seen by passages below, but God's predestination depends on His foreknowledge and His all-knowing omniscience -kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg?) reference: http://www.bibleone.net/print_tbs34.html
******* what I was trying to say is that, yes, God *does* 'predestinate' -but this does not rob us of our Free Will --rather, God does this based on His super knowledge of the situation.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,...
A contra argument that supports your supposition.
Acts 6:5
And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen,...
Again, THEY had Free Will - so, this supports my contention too.
Luke 10:42
But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
MARY had Free Will! To chose salvation no less!!
maybe I was unclear - sorry if so -- let me rephrase my question:
Why do we have to endure all this life full of choices and decisions if it is all predetermined anyhow?
Last edited by GordonWayneWatts; 02-02-2010 at 07:31 AM..
Reason: add text in blue to clarify: "what I was trying to say..."
(my guess would hypothesize that you *do* have free will, as seen by passages below, but God's predestination depends on His foreknowledge and His all-knowing omniscience -kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg?) reference: http://www.bibleone.net/print_tbs34.html
******* what I was trying to say is that, yes, God *does* 'predestinate' -but this does not rob us of our Free Will --rather, God does this based on His super knowledge of the situation.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,...
A contra argument that supports your supposition.
Acts 6:5
And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen,...
Again, THEY had Free Will - so, this supports my contention too.
Luke 10:42
But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
MARY had Free Will! To chose salvation no less!!
maybe I was unclear - sorry if so -- let me rephrase my question:
Why do we have to endure all this life full of choices and decisions if it is all predetermined anyhow?
May I interject that making a choice does not necessarily denote free-will. That's a common misconception. Free-will technically means "the power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will".
In a spiritual context the only way we could maintain that humans have actual free-will is to maintain that we created our own nature AND that we had the ability to heal our own spiritual blindness in order to make completely free, unconstrained choices.
I don't have time for a full on debate - just some food for thought. I understand that this is a difficult concept for many.
Also - I don't know why you equate Mary's wanting to listen to Jesus' discourse (as opposed to Martha's practical service orientation) with her salvation. I guess that means Martha was damned for not taking a break?
Please explain.
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no free will? cf: Mark 8:34
ramifications of no free will: anything goes
