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please do not tell me to go and read a verse or two that you think will point something out.
Why are you posting here then, if you don't want to search out what is written? The Bible proverb says, "A fool delights in only expressing His own opinion."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thirdparty
...and I'm not going to tell you to read the scripture as to where it say a new temple will be built I'm sure you've read it...
None of the Hebrew Scriptures are later than the Babylonish captivity and during Israel and Judea's return from it, though some think Malachi was a little later. The prophecies about rebuilding the temple were made before the building of the Restoration Temple as they were returning from captivity. This temple was being worked on with the help of Herod for 40 years and was known as Herods's Temple in the days that Jesus walked here in His body of humiliation before the cross, resurrection and ascension. He quoted from Ezekiels prophecy about the temple as recorded by John in the following:
John 7:37-39 (CLV)...
37 Now on the last, the great day of the festival, Jesus stood and cries, saying, "If anyone should be thirsting, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water."
39 Now this He said concerning the spirit which those believing in Him were about to get. For not as yet was holy spirit given, for Jesus is not as yet glorified.
This was the 7th or 8th day of the Feast of Tabernacles. Much abou that could be said. There was for instance a daily pouring out under the altar
While Psalm 46:4; Proverbs 11:25, 18:4; Zechariah 8:14 have some application, it seems to me that where "the Scripture said," this that Jesus was referring to is epitomized by Ezekiel 47:1-12. This means God's explantion of the Temple of Ezekiel, according to Jesus' words at the feast, interpreting the words of the vision of the prophet, is a spiritual reality concerning the believing people of God. The Mercy Throne in th Holy of Holies is in you and the water or the Holy Spirit is flowing out from there into you and the world. While this prophecy was before the Restoration Temple, some say it is talking about another temple not yet built.
Originally, what the real thing was that Moses saw in the mount and explained, Bezazlael made according to the pattern and Aaron received for the people. What Moses saw was surely much superior to what was build in the earth. Similarly we could argue Ezekiel's vision was superior to what was built. Beyond that, as mentioned, Jesus decribes the meaning of the Temple.
It should be mentioned also that what Ezekiel describes would on the side nearest the sea be halfway to the sea it is so big and Jerusalem would be bigger than the land of Israel. This temple wouldn't fit on Mt Moriah. If there is another temple built in Jerusalem it is in defiance of the ultimate Revelation of God in Jesus the Lamb of God. In the Book of Hebrews it describes that as trampling underfoot the blood of Christ as a thing unholy and enraging the Spirit of Grace. It could be part of the "working of a strong delusion to believe a lie," for how would even many Christians view it?
Why are you posting here then, if you don't want to search out what is written? The Bible proverb says, "A fool delights in only expressing His own opinion."
None of the Hebrew Scriptures are later than the Babylonish captivity and during Israel and Judea's return from it, though some think Malachi was a little later. The prophecies about rebuilding the temple were made before the building of the Restoration Temple as they were returning from captivity. This temple was being worked on with the help of Herod for 40 years and was known as Herods's Temple in the days that Jesus walked here in His body of humiliation before the cross, resurrection and ascension. He quoted from Ezekiels prophecy about the temple as recorded by John in the following:
John 7:37-39 (CLV)...
37 Now on the last, the great day of the festival, Jesus stood and cries, saying, "If anyone should be thirsting, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water."
39 Now this He said concerning the spirit which those believing in Him were about to get. For not as yet was holy spirit given, for Jesus is not as yet glorified.
This was the 7th or 8th day of the Feast of Tabernacles. Much abou that could be said. There was for instance a daily pouring out under the altar
While Psalm 46:4; Proverbs 11:25, 18:4; Zechariah 8:14 have some application, it seems to me that where "the Scripture said," this that Jesus was referring to is epitomized by Ezekiel 47:1-12. This means God's explantion of the Temple of Ezekiel, according to Jesus' words at the feast, interpreting the words of the vision of the prophet, is a spiritual reality concerning the believing people of God. The Mercy Throne in th Holy of Holies is in you and the water or the Holy Spirit is flowing out from there into you and the world. While this prophecy was before the Restoration Temple, some say it is talking about another temple not yet built.
Originally, what the real thing was that Moses saw in the mount and explained, Bezazlael made according to the pattern and Aaron received for the people. What Moses saw was surely much superior to what was build in the earth. Similarly we could argue Ezekiel's vision was superior to what was built. Beyond that, as mentioned, Jesus decribes the meaning of the Temple.
It should be mentioned also that what Ezekiel describes would on the side nearest the sea be halfway to the sea it is so big and Jerusalem would be bigger than the land of Israel. This temple wouldn't fit on Mt Moriah. If there is another temple built in Jerusalem it is in defiance of the ultimate Revelation of God in Jesus the Lamb of God. In the Book of Hebrews it describes that as trampling underfoot the blood of Christ as a thing unholy and enraging the Spirit of Grace. It could be part of the "working of a strong delusion to believe a lie," for how would even many Christians view it?
Oh for crying out loud, for one thank you for taking me out of context you can keep your two cents if you'd like as I was asking in direct responce to preterist unless you are speaking on his behalf please chime in with more examples of what I was talking about to preterist of little inserts telling people what the bible really says,IMO that does NOT reap fruitfull dialog just back and forth he said she said in fact I listed CU UU specifically for that reason. Also thank you for dribbling out your verstion of what the feast of tabernacles Jesus was talking about, and the little diddy about the BRIDE of Christ the New Jerusalem the city when I CLEARLY said temple!
Always judge your wisdom on what the Bible says. Check all things through His Word.
That's why if you ask most pre-tribbers why they believe in the rapture they will usually say, "Because that is what Hal and Jack and Grant teach and they can't all be wrong, can they?" (oh yes they can!) Rarely will they search it out for themselves. If they did they'd find a mountain of evidence to refute the rapture (At least a pre-trib one) as well as a 7-year tribulation and an Antichrist in the form of a human being with some exotic movie star-sounding name.
That's why if you ask most pre-tribbers why they believe in the rapture they will usually say, "Because that is what Hal and Jack and Grant teach and they can't all be wrong, can they?" (oh yes they can!) Rarely will they search it out for themselves. If they did they'd find a mountain of evidence to refute the rapture (At least a pre-trib one) as well as a 7-year tribulation and an Antichrist in the form of a human being with some exotic movie star-sounding name.
First off I haven't heard a pretriber site any of those authers unless they happen to be slightly older usually it is a list of fragmented scripture that doesn't really back up what they claim. Second I do not see a pre tribe rapture in the Bible at all but that doesn't give me credance to rip people a new hole or think they are stupid or not christian...wow since you have such a clear grasp on things why don't you share your view just what is being said in reguards to the Bible on Christ second coming or if you think he is coming back. Also can I ask what how you view the time know as The Day of The Lord?
Okay since you are just throwing back an arguement then I will respond the same in Luke 21:20-24 he was addressing THOSE deciples YOUR RIGHT I didn't argue with you on that but as far as the distruction of the temple that was poured out on those that held to the old covenent. If you read Hebrews 8 you can see a point of conflict with all things being fufilled is there a temple in Jerusalem today that worships Jesus Christ? Not that I can see and I'm not talking about Christians living in Isreal that occured before the crusifiction I'm talking about a temple like Herod's like Saloman's I must have missed that on my google maps unless that is a blurred out area I don't see it and I'm not going to tell you to read the scripture as to where it say a new temple will be built I'm sure you've read it please do not tell me to go and read a verse or two that you think will point something out.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. 11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[
ThirdParty: Let's get the entire context of Jeremiah 31! This is a prediction of the NEW COVENANT and speaks of those who are of the spiritual seed of Abraham. In that covenant, ALL Israel (the spiritual seed of Abraham) is saved! Note what the Lord says:
"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--NOT ACCORDING TO the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant WHICH THEY BROKE, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But THIS is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts; and I will be THEIR God, and they shall be My people . . . " (Jeremiah 31:31f--emphasis mine).
"They will ALL know Me" is a reference to the New Covenant church in which all members know Him. ALL true Israel shall be saved--in the Church which includes both Jew and Gentile!
ThirdParty: I wish you WOULD tell me where the Bible says that a new physical Temple will be built in our future because I do not know of any such verses!
First off I haven't heard a pretriber site any of those authers unless they happen to be slightly older usually it is a list of fragmented scripture that doesn't really back up what they claim. Second I do not see a pre tribe rapture in the Bible at all but that doesn't give me credance to rip people a new hole or think they are stupid or not christian...wow since you have such a clear grasp on things why don't you share your view just what is being said in reguards to the Bible on Christ second coming or if you think he is coming back. Also can I ask what how you view the time know as The Day of The Lord?
Well, I was more suggesting that pre-tribbers are heavily influenced by those guys as they have had TV shows on for years as well as numerous books spewing misinformation. There isn't a pre-tribber out there who hasn't watched or read them. I'm not ripping them. I just want to shake them and shout, "Wake up! You're being duped! All just to put a buck or two or 100 into their pockets." If pre-tribbers here would just read the four links I provided earlier they'd at least come away with some questions about whether it's a sound doctrine. But I've talked to pre-tribbers by the dozens and, without exception, they all steadfastly refuse to even consider the matter, much less read up on it, even a little. It's like they are so afraid that their fragile belief will shatter like that delicate glass icing on a cake if even so much as a shadow of doubt brushes them. Go to RITA aka Rapture in the Air website and read some of the comments. If you post so much as a hint that the rapture might not come you are sternly warned and then blocked instantly. Can their faith melt that easily? Unfortunately, yes, as they faithfully watch dates and have seen innumerable bad calls come and go. There is such a pallor of gloom among some of them after a date fails. So many pin their hopes on the rapture because they are in miserable conditions (personal as in divorce, bad marriage, or health-wise or financial-wise; it's obvious they're desperate to escape this world because of their problems: (eg "I want the rapture to come today; I just can't stand being in this corrupt word any longer with my arthritis, bad back and all these financial difficulties!) The next date is May 31 (Pentecost) because it works out to 2300 days from Pentecost to Rosh Hashana 2016 and they associate 2300 days with the shortened tribulation that Marilyn Agee advocates. Of course there are many pre-tribbers who don't watch dates and don't give the rapture a second thought. As long as they are not obsessed with the rapture or follow each date that is set, I suppose no harm done. But many of the ones who agonize over each lost date are having their confidence in the Lord undermined horribly. I've seen it. Not to mention the newly saved who then fall away when a date comes and goes. I've seen them by the scores. These pre-trib teachers will answer to God one day for the numerous souls who were lost because of their false teachings. I would NOT want to be in their shoes when they face the Lord on Judgement Day!
Last edited by thrillobyte; 05-19-2009 at 08:51 AM..
Reason: added material
ThirdParty: Let's get the entire context of Jeremiah 31! This is a prediction of the NEW COVENANT and speaks of those who are of the spiritual seed of Abraham. In that covenant, ALL Israel (the spiritual seed of Abraham) is saved! Note what the Lord says:
"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--NOT ACCORDING TO the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant WHICH THEY BROKE, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But THIS is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts; and I will be THEIR God, and they shall be My people . . . " (Jeremiah 31:31f--emphasis mine).
"They will ALL know Me" is a reference to the New Covenant church in which all members know Him. ALL true Israel shall be saved--in the Church which includes both Jew and Gentile!
ThirdParty: I wish you WOULD tell me where the Bible says that a new physical Temple will be built in our future because I do not know of any such verses!
Preterist
Hey preterist,
I was quoteing from the context of Hebrews not Jer. 31. Jer 31 is a good example of how to messure the time being mentioned look at verse 38-40 at what time is that day spoken of if ones say's this age there is a problem because it is seseptable to distruction at any moment if pre 70 ad then God would have been wrong please share. also as far as the new temple or rebuilt temple start with the end and work back or say Rev 7:13-16 or so and of course this day and age no one beleives in any thing litarul so I anticapate the whole spiritual temple bit that is what I'm guessing will come of that topic. The new covenent was made at the cross and before Jesus life death resurection that is the new cov some time before 70 A.D But Isreal as a whole and for that matter the current world we live in still rejects Jesus and that's getting worse not better even with the use of internet radio and tv. I still have to say Day of the Lord=Second coming of Christ Jesus lion of Judah and that day has not occured yet!
Well, I was more suggesting that pre-tribbers are heavily influenced by those guys as they have had TV shows on for years as well as numerous books spewing misinformation. There isn't a pre-tribber out there who hasn't watched or read them. I'm not ripping them. I just want to shake them and shout, "Wake up! You're being duped! All just to put a buck or two or 100 into their pockets." If pre-tribbers here would just read the four links I provided earlier they'd at least come away with some questions about whether it's a sound doctrine. But I've talked to pre-tribbers by the dozens and, without exception, they all steadfastly refuse to even consider the matter, much less read up on it, even a little. It's like they are so afraid that their fragile belief will shatter like that delicate glass icing on a cake if even so much as a shadow of doubt brushes them. Go to RITA aka Rapture in the Air website and read some of the comments. If you post so much as a hint that the rapture might not come you are sternly warned and then blocked instantly. Can their faith melt that easily? Unfortunately, yes, as they faithfully watch dates and have seen innumerable bad calls come and go. There is such a pallor of gloom among some of them after a date fails. So many pin their hopes on the rapture because they are in miserable conditions (personal as in divorce, bad marriage, or health-wise or financial-wise; it's obvious they're desperate to escape this world because of their problems: (eg "I want the rapture to come today; I just can't stand being in this corrupt word any longer with my arthritis, bad back and all these financial difficulties!) The next date is May 31 (Pentecost) because it works out to 2300 days from Pentecost to Rosh Hashana 2016 and they associate 2300 days with the shortened tribulation that Marilyn Agee advocates. Of course there are many pre-tribbers who don't watch dates and don't give the rapture a second thought. As long as they are not obsessed with the rapture or follow each date that is set, I suppose no harm done. But many of the ones who agonize over each lost date are having their confidence in the Lord undermined horribly. I've seen it. Not to mention the newly saved who then fall away when a date comes and goes. I've seen them by the scores. These pre-trib teachers will answer to God one day for the numerous souls who were lost because of their false teachings. I would NOT want to be in their shoes when they face the Lord on Judgement Day!
Sorry I can not agree with your rip on pre tribers and beleive me my ears and eyes have all most exploded out of my head listening to that dribble but on average in my experiance they usually go on and on about end times stuff that is usually taken out of context and trying to figure out who the anti christ is and there has been a lot of canidates over the years!And don't worry you will be in your shoes on Judgment day that's enough to think about in this life time!
I was quoteing from the context of Hebrews not Jer. 31. Jer 31 is a good example of how to messure the time being mentioned look at verse 38-40 at what time is that day spoken of if ones say's this age there is a problem because it is seseptable to distruction at any moment if pre 70 ad then God would have been wrong please share. also as far as the new temple or rebuilt temple start with the end and work back or say Rev 7:13-16 or so and of course this day and age no one beleives in any thing litarul so I anticapate the whole spiritual temple bit that is what I'm guessing will come of that topic. The new covenent was made at the cross and before Jesus life death resurection that is the new cov some time before 70 A.D But Isreal as a whole and for that matter the current world we live in still rejects Jesus and that's getting worse not better even with the use of internet radio and tv. I still have to say Day of the Lord=Second coming of Christ Jesus lion of Judah and that day has not occured yet!
Thirdparty: I am sorry but I do not honestly know what you are asking!
Oh for crying out loud, for one thank you for taking me out of context you can keep your two cents if you'd like as I was asking in direct responce to preterist unless you are speaking on his behalf please chime in with more examples of what I was talking about to preterist of little inserts telling people what the bible really says,IMO that does NOT reap fruitfull dialog just back and forth he said she said in fact I listed CU UU specifically for that reason. Also thank you for dribbling out your verstion of what the feast of tabernacles Jesus was talking about, and the little diddy about the BRIDE of Christ the New Jerusalem the city when I CLEARLY said temple!
I don't understand what at the last you intend by what you said.
I think this form of media has us all dribbling out little bits at a time. I don't know what you already know or if you're ignorant of something I might bless with. I don't focus on every detail, but in bringing up areas of discussion I'm willing to examine particulars that others want considered. I didn't feel I was interrupting anything or preventing fellowship here. These are things of some importance and we ought to at least offer to share what we've been brought to understand. It takes a lot of hard work for me to look up references and type out something like I did to you. I don't think of myself as having such an abundance of superior knowledge that I'm only here to instruct. I would like to discover things brought forth from many vessels that would increase my understanding of IEUE and His Law-word. "A River, Whose streams make glad the City of God, is the Holy of the Tabernacles of The Most High God in the midst of Her. She will not be moved. God will help Her at dawn."
This is a day of opening the Books. ELS code is one proof. How much more to those who dearly love The Absolute?! He is espousing a people to Himself. He is the Source, the Guide, and the Goal of everything everywhere. Surely there must be a delight in His Word! He has in these past few months increased my understanding in what is written of what to be expecting as He unfolds reality in these days. These are things old and new. Here, in these posts, one feels like Abraham chasing the birds away from his sacrifice he'd laid out before the LORD, and so you seem to be saying of yourself too.
I know there will be a contest in the close of this age. It is just that we can't get at the particulars if we try to maintain phrases non-existent in the Biblical record as a means of peering at prophesied events. One viewpoint -- whether Futurist, Historicist, Ideal or Symbolist, and Preterist as well -- should not exclude openness to the possibilities in the text of Scripture.
I weary of persistent contest over such obvious and simple facts so easily demonstrated as written or not written. It only takes chapter and verse. Without that we are pretty certain it is not written. If people won't go through the door, there can be little display of the treasures within. If they despise my coat of many colors, how much more have they already been enraged at my dreams?!
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