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The problem here is that you have chosen the word "desire" to mean the wrong thing. Most of us 'desire' to live a healthy life, but many of us live in pain. Most of us 'desire' a happy life, but many do not have one. Most of us 'desire' that our children will be good successful citizens, but many are disappointed.
The meaning you are putting on the word in relation to God is saying He has us all on a string , like puppets, and we are all doing what He wants us to! This is in direct contradiction to the written word. Oh, you can hunt and pick, and find scriptures that seem to teach what you are saying, but that can be done with any doctrine.
Truely, God wants us all to come to Him and be saved, but allwillnot! That is very greivous to Him, but He has given us a choice.There would be absolutely no reason to give us a choice if everyone is going to come to Him eventually whether they chose to or not.
Yes, every knee will bow to Him at the judgement, but they will be doing it with weeping and knashing of teeth from knowing what they have thrown away!
How do you 'interpret' the scripture that says " Depart from me, I never knew you" ? Depart where, and for how long?
It is of no consequence to me that you chose to trash me for my belief in all of the word of God. Regardless of what you accuse me of, I shall continue to believe all of it.
I can only pray that the mutitudes will not believe the doctrine that is being taught here....
There are so many threads concerning this lie that I completely missed your post. Amen, Towhee!!
2 Corinthians 4:2
Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
Psalm 119:126
It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.
Isaiah 55:11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Unless eternal is just one moment, a point, which is just there, neither past, present, nor future.
Just surmising here.
It would make no sense for any being to create us, and punish us for not finding him. How can we find him? What proof do we have?
People create small things they suspect as theophanies, or God-sightings, but anyone can claim a sunset or a disease in remission is from God. But they cannot claim to have seen God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
e·ter·nal (-tûrnl)
adj.
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time.
So if eternity has no beginning or end, then how could damnation be eternal when it certainly at least has a beginning. And if it can be said that damnation certainly has a beginning, shouldn't it also be said that damnation has to do with time in general, that is to say it is a temporal state of being?
As a matter of fact, aionion destruction refers to the temporal destruction of the wicked existing within time, and thus could not be eternal.
So if the god of this aion is satan, then how could aion mean eternal? And why is "this aion" referred to in specific, as if were only one of many? Shouldn't it be understood that satan is the god of this present age? And in the age to come his kingdom will be thrown down to the pit?
So aionion destruction cannot mean something different then age long destruction could it?
Which translation do you wish me to forget, Towhee? As for knowing the Living God: His glorious intention continues to dominate my thinking!
"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."
Right ...
Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will(thelēma, noun):"
We see that everything works according to the counsel of his own will. Not the will of any man.
What is the council of Gods will?
1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will(thelo, verb) have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
and again ...
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Where in the bible does it talk about free will? I mean, sure the illusion of free will is apparent to us in this world, but ultimately God's is done ...
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Romans 9:18
also ...
"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing(desiring, "thelo") to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved."
Now, it is God who hardens the heart of whomever he will, these are vessels fitted unto destruction, whom God does endure with long suffering so that he might show the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy. The thing we have to understand is what is the meaning of destruction? Even the believers suffer a type of destruction in that the old man dies and the new man is born. In order for anything to be made new it needs must first suffer destruction. Or is the purpose of destruction for complete annihilation? Or is it everlasting torment? What does the bible say about it?
Isaiah 57:16 "For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always(forever) wroth(angry): for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made."
Here we see that if Gods anger or "wrath" lasted forever in his contending with sin, the spirits and the souls which he has made would fail before him(cease to exist). And he Goes so far as to express that indeed his Wrath(judgment) will not last forever for this very reason. What then is the purpose of Gods wrath and judgment, from whence does it arise and to what end is it measured out if to any end at all?
"Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. 7 Many waters cannot quenchlove, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned."
In this we see that Gods love is like an unquenchable fire and it gives rise to jealousy within him when that which he so adores(humanity) trespass against him. It is thus due to his jealous love that his wrath is kindled and he is driven to judgment against his beloved. What then is the purpose of this judgment, we know that it causes "destruction" but to what extent?
Mal 3:2 "2 And who is bearing the day of his coming? And who is standing in his appearing? For he [is] as fire of a refiner, And as soap of a fuller."
So even as the new covenant is extended out to encompass all the nations Jews and gentiles alike, then so is the judgment of God meted out to all nations Jews and Gentiles alike. And this is the judgment of Gods fire on all men, as a refiners(purifiers) fire. His judgment is to the end of cleansing(soap of the fuller) those who are judged.
So Christ came baptizing with the holy spirit, and whoever blaspheme(resists) the spirit will be cast into the lake of fire(which is the fire of his jealous love which is for the purification and cleansing of those who are judged) Which is when Christ will Baptize with fire, so that those who are judged will suffer loss, but "will be saved; yet so as by fire" ...
1 Corinthians 3:13 - 15 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
Unless eternal is just one moment, a point, which is just there, neither past, present, nor future.
Just surmising here.
God is "ayah asher ayah", which is literally translated "I become that(or what) I become" ... He is the becoming of being in his ultimate reality. Time is not an issue where his being is concerned, though time is wrapped within his "timeless" (infinite) being. God is realizing/manifesting himself through his relationship with his creation. In our lives he becomes real/manifest. Through our experience He becomes visible from the invisible. Gods ultimate purpose is to fully reveal himself to man through the man Christ, and to reveal his will for complete atonement of being through the very same Christ, who is the express image of God himself.
In a sense the relationship had between God and creation is that of two lovers. God creates humanity to disclose himself to and to come into and beget a unity of being in a the new creation to come at the fullness of the ages. Everything in the ages of this heavens and earth leading up to that point is the eventual manifestation and culmination of that penultimate purpose which is the will of God, and the process by which it will inevitably come about, being above all atonement.
Quote:
It would make no sense for any being to create us, and punish us for not finding him. How can we find him? What proof do we have?
People create small things they suspect as theophanies, or God-sightings, but anyone can claim a sunset or a disease in remission is from God. But they cannot claim to have seen God.
God reveals himself to whomever he will whenever he will, and it is his purpose that many should be deceived at this time, in that his name is glorified in the revelation of the truth of his own righteousness, which is made evident with the justification of sin in Christ Jesus by means of his own blood sacrifice and through the baptism of the holy spirit for his elect vessels of mercy, and by means of baptism with fire for the vessels of wrath ...
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (King James Version)
"11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned (literally judged, i.e Greek : krinō) who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
Why does God work in this manner? It is so that man might have the knowledge of Good and Evil and still become atoned to him. We can only know good by experiencing what is not good, and so we can only know God by experiencing what is ungodly. In the end it will be for the purpose of his ultimate will which is for all to come to a knowledge of God through the man Christ who is the agent of his judgment and mercy, and through his agent of judgment and mercy and through the administrating faculty of his will who are the elect of his mercy(the revealed sons of God) to finally becomeall and in all ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-31-2009 at 12:36 AM..
The problem here is that you have chosen the word "desire" to mean the wrong thing. Most of us 'desire' to live a healthy life, but many of us live in pain. Most of us 'desire' a happy life, but many do not have one. Most of us 'desire' that our children will be good successful citizens, but many are disappointed.
The meaning you are putting on the word in relation to God is saying He has us all on a string , like puppets, and we are all doing what He wants us to! This is in direct contradiction to the written word. Oh, you can hunt and pick, and find scriptures that seem to teach what you are saying, but that can be done with any doctrine.
Truely, God wants us all to come to Him and be saved, but allwillnot! That is very greivous to Him, but He has given us a choice.There would be absolutely no reason to give us a choice if everyone is going to come to Him eventually whether they chose to or not.
Yes, every knee will bow to Him at the judgement, but they will be doing it with weeping and knashing of teeth from knowing what they have thrown away!
How do you 'interpret' the scripture that says " Depart from me, I never knew you" ? Depart where, and for how long?
It is of no consequence to me that you chose to trash me for my belief in all of the word of God. Regardless of what you accuse me of, I shall continue to believe all of it.
I can only pray that the mutitudes will not believe the doctrine that is being taught here....
Again we keep answering your resistance to the Holy Spirit with the word and you still keep coming back the the traditional chuirch doctrine inspired not by the Holy Spirit but by the mans mistranslation of the word .
Here's proof from the word about God's desire being fulfilled
Isaiah 55
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Here's a little commentary on the this verse
You cannot dent that the scripture says God desires all men to be saved.
That is the word .
Well read the word again it's His word , that went out of His mouth that at some point in History also got into 1 Timothy .
Are you with me ?
So Gods word goes forth out of His mouth gets recorded in scripture(the word).
Now read the verse again , doesn't it clearly say it will accomplish what He desires .
Come on it's there in black and white how can you resist it now?.
How can you come back at that with a futile argument that God is like a man who does not get all that he desires ?
Come on Ilene , Towhee, Latte Chic, Fundy,Omaha, please now tell me God does not receive He desires.
The word actually tells us to believe we have (already got)what we pray for. Do you think God would desire something He knew He could not get because of mans stubborness to come to Him ? .
Again we keep answering your resistance to the Holy Spirit with the word and you still keep coming back the the traditional chuirch doctrine inspired not by the Holy Spirit but by the mans mistranslation of the word .
Here's proof from the word about God's desire being fulfilled
Isaiah 55
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Here's a little commentary on the this verse
You cannot dent that the scripture says God desires all men to be saved.
That is the word .
Well read the word again it's His word , that went out of His mouth that at some point in History also got into 1 Timothy .
Are you with me ?
So Gods word goes forth out of His mouth gets recorded in scripture(the word).
Now read the verse again , doesn't it clearly say it will accomplish what He desires .
Come on it's there in black and white how can you resist it now?.
How can you come back at that with a futile argument that God is like a man who does not get all that he desires ?
Come on Ilene , Towhee, Latte Chic, Fundy,Omaha, please now tell me God does not receive He desires.
The word actually tells us to believe we have (already got)what we pray for. Do you think God would desire something He knew He could not get because of mans stubborness to come to Him ? .
One is really walking on dangerous ground aren't they..... especially telling other's who the Holy Spirit is in our lives....!!! And that they call Him the traditional church doctrine in our lives and saying it is not the Holy Spirit in our hearts and lives! We are resisting Him......You really scare me! Because you have no way of reading another's heart!!
One of my favorite Scripture is..........
Because I have seen God bring it to pass in my life....
Zechariah 2:8
For thus says the LORD of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye.
Yep, God's word and purpose came to pass in my life.....
God will revenge His children.....I have been a recipient of it!
There was two individuals that in my walk in the Lord, that taunted Jesus Christ in my life..... one had a heart attack, the other one lost everything they had and is still in that situation of their life.....right after their taunting, vexation and harassment!
God's word does not come back void..... It does accomplishes what is sent forth to do!!
Blessings....
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 05-31-2009 at 06:52 AM..
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As for knowing the Living God: His glorious intention continues to dominate my thinking!
