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When I quoted the prophet Micah to you it was rejected by you. "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom." (Mi 7:5, AV) You went on to say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man;9493691
I have too, but I have also known Christian people who did not do evil. Without trust, there can be no love. 1Cor 13:7 Love bears all things, [I
believes all things[/i], hopes all things, endures all things.
I like what Ronald Reagan said years ago about the Russians. He was talking about the necessity of inspections even though the Russians were now our 'friends'. He said, "trust, but verify".
John 2:23-24 (CLV)...
23 Now as He was in Jerusalem at the Passover in the festival, many believe in His name, beholding His signs which He did.
24 Yet Jesus Himself did not entrust Himself to them, because of His knowing all men,
25 for He had no need that anyone should be testifying concerning mankind, for He knew what was in mankind.
John 2:23-24 (AV)...
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
The above word translated "entrust" in CLV and "commit" in KJV is :
pisteuō verb
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
a) of the thing believed
1) to credit, have confidence
b) in a moral or religious reference
1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
a) to be intrusted with a thing
239 times out of 248 the KJV translated it with the word, "believe."
Understand it or not, I'll restate...We are not to put our trust in man, including friends and even the man of ourself. We are to love, even our enemies. But we are not to trust, rely on or put our confidence in any man or men!!! That is for God alone.
I'm going back to what you said that I already answered differently here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
God takes no pleasure in those who are cast into the lake of fire. If God really intended to save all with or without any response/acceptance to him, then why would he pleasure to make a fallen man live a torturous life before finally "rescuing" him? That would truly be torturous.
Again, a staement you have repeatedly denied, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.' (Rv 4:11, AV) While a common remark, certainly unbiblical, an your statement that, "God takes no pleasure in those who are cat into the lake of fire," an exact quote, is what is overthrown by Rv 4:11. You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus made all things as the Bile says, including man and the lake of fire, knowing the result because He "knows the end from the beginning," or He did not make them or did not know the outcome. I believe the former. To keep saying He takes no pleasure in their torture when the Bible says He made all things for His pleasure is a tongue I'd like to see nailed to the cross. If He takes no pleasure in it, then He is trapped forever by sin and the devil into extremely repulsive deeds. Indeed, since God must become, "the all in all," (1 Co 15:28) (not the all in some!) then, He must be suffering the tortures of the damned along with them. This is already a reality from numerous othe staement in Holy Writ. Indeed, God must remain eternally sick and tortured, the victim of His creation unless He can bring about what in relation to Job, who represents the entire human race, that, "...the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy." (Ja 5:11) This was also not liked by Jonah, the man who died and went to hell for ever and, from there, God heard and answered his prayer, raising him up to prophesy to Nineveh. At the end of the book of Jonah we find him in the second death.
You slanderously attached to me the common "hearsay" accusation against those who believe in the final total goodness of God defining everything everywhere (my! what an evil thing!), that "...God really intend[s] to save all with or without any response/acceptance to him," which I didn't aswer but briefly will. I believe that salvation produces changed lives, from self to the presence of God, from sin to righteousness, from death to life. When you say "without response/acceptance" I assume you mean the man has to exercise his will toward God. That is a response which it seems Scripture generally teaches. When hearing Jesus at his home Zachias said he'd pay back4 fold any he owed and give half his good to the poor. Jesus said of him, "Today salvation has come to this house." Though a question, it was asked if faith with out works could save us. So the closing of a man's approval and satisfaction in the demonstration of the kindness of God to him is deemed salvation. Nevertheless, it also seems clear that Scripture teaches salvation is not based on the exercise of our will.
It is, "not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship..." I do hear many boasting that they have chosen Him and the others did not, as though that is a basis either for so great a salvation or for so great an evil as permanent unending torture, and even worse, the God that would be like that. That it should all hinge on what idea you get in your head about Jesus before you die when your destiny is thereby settled is not at all true however deep a groove it seems to have achieved in the uninitiated and unlearned.
Ephesian 2:8-10 (AV)...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
That idea goes along with another popular unexamined "strawman" that flip-flops on the idea of salvation. When we are saved we change. "Old things are passed away, behold! all things are new." It is objected that I'm saying even Hitler or such would be saved on the assumed basis that he is only rescued so as to continue being wicked. The same objection exists for mentioning the gospel at all, regardless of the extent of its operation. I knew a man who believed since Jesus died for his sins and he believed it then he could have a different woman every couple of weeks. He did not prove it wrong to preach the gospel that Christ died for our sins and that our saving belief in it is by grace. He just proved that he wasn't walking in the salvation brought to us by God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just1Man
Why is it that if he chooses a system of redemption by faith, as apposed to redeption by design, you chant "God must be lacking!" You have nothing to base that conclusion upon, but predetermined speculation and man's "common sense". These are not only unreliable but grossly inadequate tools with which to judge God as you do.
Paul told us he was an not just an example, but a (lit.Gk.,) PATTERN of the grace of God for those who should hereafter believe.
1 Timothy 1:12-16, (AV)...
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
One aspect of that pattern is he was not seeking God because he already believed he was advanced better than his peers in serving God. He was not seeking to have new depths opened to him about the Scripture. He was already an influencial teacher of the word, a rabbi with renown for being an advocate and practitioner of radical activism in obeying the only true God. What this meant was he harrassed and tortured, even was guilty of the murders of followers of Jesus, the most important rabbi to have ever lived.
What I fail to see is how your idea of God redeeming by faith ("redemption" means "liberation") is exclusive and in opposition to an overarching plan or design that cannot be set aside by anything man does or does not do. There are two words for "will" that are confused by most versions. One will happen regardless. The other can be set aside by stubborn and disobedient men. Then there are additional nuances in the discussion. I haven't heard the "freewill" mantra yet, but a lot of your arguments seem borrowed from Divine Sovereignity vs. Man's Freewill debates. I really refuse to go very far down that path for several reasons. One big reason is I am quite beyond actually believing both sides in what I understand from Scripture. Beginning disciples of Jesus should memorize this that He says: "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Lk 22:22, AV) These two statements in one breath are mutually exclusive and in direct contradiction with each other, yet they are equally true. People have set up a wall dividing these two sides of the coin, and then set about throwing rocks at each other from both sides of that wall.
There is suffering in the lake of fire for those whose name is not found in the book of life, but most cannot understand it either.
Again, no direct statement, no actual words to that effect in the Bible. Just NOT THERE!!! Not even in translation! Not just the last phrase. "...suffering in the lake of fire for those whose name is not found in the book of life..." and no combination of such words that amount to that thought is ever in the Bible. NOT!
[quote=Just1Man;9493691
Why is it that if he chooses a system of redemption by faith, as apposed to redeption by design, you chant "God must be lacking!" You have nothing to base that conclusion upon, but predetermined speculation and man's "common sense". These are not only unreliable but grossly inadequate tools with which to judge God as you do.
legoman said it:
"Annihilation denys Christ's victory over death.
Arminians say God is blocked from saving all due to man's free will.
Calvinists say God just doesn't love everyone.
Yet universalism harmonizes it all 100% consistently with the bible. God is sovereign AND loving AND will achieve his goal of defeating death and saving all!"
And it is God who said, "Come let us reason together." Elsewhere He says He will be justified in our eyes and He will commend Himself to the conscience of every man! Reason and conscience are testimonies of God to us as is Scripture, so says Scripture. While we are "not to lean to our own understanding" we are nevertheless to recognize it is still true, "Wisdom is the principal thing; and with all your getting get understanding." The first two in the list in 1 Co 12 of what we call "the gifts of the spirit" are word of wisdom and word of knowledge." They are an earnest of our inheritance promising we will obtain the mind of Christ, which even now we are enjoined to put on.
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 06-27-2009 at 10:49 PM..
Rev 21:27 reiterates the only ones allowed into new jerusalem are those whose name is found in the Lamb's book of life. All others were cast into the lake of fire according to Rev 20:14, which was and is the last word we have on the lake of fire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come
There is no question in my mind that people are entering the kingdom of God in Revelation 21 (compare to Isaiah 60). The only question for me is whether what is happening in Revelation 21 is necessarily taking place after the GWT judgment.
Rev 20:11-14 seems to give the chronology like this:
John sees the great white throne (20:11)
The dead were before the GWT and books were opened, including the book of life. The dead are judged according to those books (20:12)
The dead from the sea, death and Hades are given up and are judged (20:13)
"Then" Death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire (20:14)
Anyone's name not in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (20:15)
"Then" John saw new heaven and new earth, and the holy city, new Jerusalem (21:1-2)
It reads that the thousand years ends, and judgment begins. Once judgement has at least begun, new Jerusalem is available for those who are found in the book of life. Since it is very specific about the names found in the book of life, and those not found in the book of life, it seems the only reasonable answer is that it is after, since the books are not opened until the time at the GWT.
you are missing the point just, or just playing dumb. I`m not talking about abortion. That is already a life. Try to follow me here.
If you wanted to have a child but the doctor told you the child would be deformed and suffer unbelievable pain EVERY SINGLE SECOND of it`s life because of some genetic mutation you had, WOULD YOU KNOWINGLY CHOOSE TO HAVE A CHILD? It`s a simple question.
You are saying that God created people knowing he would torture just about every one of them. So I am asking you a hypothetical question.
Please don`t tell me you don`t understand that simple question.
I`m not asking you a bunch of what if this and what if thats. It`s a simple straight forward question
The problem is that your hypothetical assumes the impossible. No doctor has ever been able to say with 100% accuracy what you are suggesting. (Some may claim it...but they wouldn't stake their lives on it). Likewise, Your hypothetical assumes another impossibility, that God would know, but that He has not provided for a means.
I am NOT saying "God created people knowing he would torture just about every one of them". I am saying, God loves you so much that he was not about to force feed himself on you. Yes, you (and I) desparately need a savior, but he is that savior, not by force; by love. The question is do you accept him. (I presume US or ET your answer is probably yes, I am just making the point).
Maybe the real question is, if God made it so simple that all we had to do was believe and let him be Lord of our lives, then why wouldn't everybody just do that. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. That is the key to the hypothetical question, when posed realistically. Why, if there is an available "cure" would anyone not accept it as opposed to denying that "cure" and suffering forever?
if ages of ages would have no beginning, then some people would have reigned with Christ for all past eternity, the devil, false prophet and beast would have been tormented for all past eternity, think about that
“And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of [the] sun; for [the] Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign to the ages of ages.“ (Rev. 22:5)
here they will have a beginning, God has no beginning I think, ages of ages might end, yet God will continue to exist, as he existed before the ages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Amen. God bless.
You have it backwards. Since "ages of ages" was used in Rev 15:7, saying God lives "ages and ages" cannot mean anything less than eternal because God is eternal. Never in scripture has God been characterized in such a way that this could be misconstrued.
Aionios means of or relating to an age or the ages. It is the adjective of aion. Therefore, God who created the ages is called the aionion or eonian God in some translations, which means that He is the God of the ages. He is working out His plan for the creation during the ages. His work is being manifested through the ages. God transcends the ages, yet He is working, manifesting, , operating as this specifically relates to the ages. His glory, His righteousness, His kingdom, His wisdom are clearly manifested through the ages, during these periods of time in which He is working out His purpose for the creation. When the ages have run their course, when they have ended, God of the ages, who transcends the ages, will be all in all. Aionios life and aionios correction are life and correction which are related to the ages. Aionios life refers to the type of or quality of life that believers have during this age and in the age to come. It is the life of knowing God.
Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the *summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens, and things upon the earth."
*summing up=anakephalaioomai=to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head as in Eph. 1 (mid. voice) (Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study
I have pretty much lived that life, but I am not blaming God for it. Although I have suffered almost constant pain for the greater part of my life, I do not blame Him for that, and I look forward to a better life eventually. Those who have not suffered cannot realize how great the relief will be when it ends.
I am sorry to hear you have dealt so long in pain. You are right not to blame God for it because to do so would be to say God made a mistake, that he doesn't have some purpose for what you had been living with and through. I pray God doesn't keep you from knowing what his purpose is in your circumstances much longer, but until then that you endure (with the strength of Christ, for sure) for His sake and seek to find ways to praise him and glorify him for it.
Thank you for sharing this with us. May God richly bless you now and later.
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