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I am a believer in Christ and I think that God's plan of salvation is one of Universal Reconciliation. I have never said there are more than one path to God. Salvation comes through belief and submission to Christ because no one can come to the Father accept through Jesus. Unitarians believe in more than one path leading to God, Universalists don't. We merely disagree on if there is a chance for repentance and thus salvation after mortal death or not. I believe God is sovereign over ALL THINGS, including death. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
We can both discuss this in Glory but I am sure who is right or wrong will have no significance when dwelling with Christ for all eternity(to the ages of the ages). Amazing how the mistranslation of one word and its various tenses can cause all of this strife...
If you are correct in your beliefs, and we are wrong, how will it effect us in the long run?
If we are correct and you are wrong...then what?
What i can say from experience is that when the Lord as delivered me from the bondage He as shown that i have been in, through the carnality of my mind and my misconception of Him , it's painful , but He is the great physician and gently tends to the pain at the same time .
I have wept on numerous occasions because of the shameful things i have believed about my Lord .
Originally Posted by Freedom-in-Christ I am a believer in Christ and I think that God's plan of salvation is one of Universal Reconciliation. I have never said there are more than one path to God. Salvation comes through belief and submission to Christ because no one can come to the Father accept through Jesus. Unitarians believe in more than one path leading to God, Universalists don't. We merely disagree on if there is a chance for repentance and thus salvation after mortal death or not. I believe God is sovereign over ALL THINGS, including death. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
We can both discuss this in Glory but I am sure who is right or wrong will have no significance when dwelling with Christ for all eternity(to the ages of the ages). Amazing how the mistranslation of one word and its various tenses can cause all of this strife...
The core problem with the non-universal view is that it is rooted in fear: you advocate hedging your bets that God will smite and hate out of fear of the possibility.
The non-universal view is rooted in scripture. Some choose to abuse it by invoking fear, but that is not it's root. In fact, it is USers as much as those you criticize that are invoking it as fear-based. ETers cannot hedge bets, because that suggests one hasn't really yielded to God, but rather has the appearance of yielding to God. Perfect love casts out fear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly
Takes a lot more courage to stand strong in the name of universal and unconditional love (and experience what that love really means), face the condemnation of society rooted in fear and, perhaps someday, the judgment of a god.
Courage does not count with regard to God's supremacy or the salvation he makes available to all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly
In such a hypothetical case, I would simply say to that god, "I don't want any part of your heaven. You demand fear from your followers, and that does not take courage. That simply takes servitude through threat of punishment like a child submissive to an abusive father who demands love with a leather belt held high. There is no growth in that. I'll take your Hell. Can't be any worse than that."
Hypothetical or otherwise, how foolish it would be to think you would have such an attitude with God. What is man that he can call God demanding and abusive. Your words sound like one who does not love discipline. I dare say you do not understand God to think you can outright defy him so; to say you think you know what "hell" might be like and so willingingly opt for it. I realize you may want to project an angered feeling based upon his premise question, but, brother, you should be ashamed of your response.
Proverbs 3:11-12 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the LORD reproves him who he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.
Proverbs 12:1-3 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid. Agood man obtains favor from the LORD, but a man of evil devices he condemns. No one is established by wickness, but the root of the righteous will never be moved.
Perhaps, in part, the underestimation of the power associated with the God Who is love, strengthens the thought He cannot be ruler over all if He isn't cruel enough. That seems to be the human logic with which the Empires of Man have been based. Mercilous cruelty and greatest force has nevertheless proven unsuccesful to maintain previous Empires of Man. But that where they failed, God will succeed with love?! Ridiculous indeed, to the carnal lmind; but, "With God all things are possible."
If you are correct in your beliefs, and we are wrong, how will it effect us in the long run?
If we are correct and you are wrong...then what?
If we're wrong: we're still saved because we STILL believe in Christ's sacrifice to us, and we just thought God was more powerful than what most people assumed. But, seriously, if he really sends people to Hell for eternity without mercy: I want nothing to do with him.
Hypothetical or otherwise, how foolish it would be to think you would have such an attitude with God. What is man that he can call God demanding and abusive. Your words sound like one who does not love discipline.
I dare say you do not understand God to think you can outright defy him so; to say you think you know what "hell" might be like and so willingingly opt for it. I realize you may want to project an angered feeling based upon his premise question, but, brother, you should be ashamed of your response.
A god who makes all things for His pleasure makes man and the lake of fire knows ahead of time He will have pleasure in torturing them in fire without ceasing for ever. He has determined to make us in His image and likeness, commanding us to imitate Him as His dear children. We are then to become Masters Torturers who really enjoy the anointing to miraculously continue torturing without ceasing.
You want to be with all that? I say you have a sick mind then, and are a dangerous person, advocating such evils against your fellow man for whom Christ died. We know people in the past who claimed they were God's bride, His Church, and under deleticio carborundum consigned men to temporal flames that they might save them from eternal flames. This went on in England for 200 years. Who knows, you may act upon such leadings from your god against my children. What must I do to prevent you?
I am a believer in Christ and I think that God's plan of salvation is one of Universal Reconciliation. I have never said there are more than one path to God. Salvation comes through belief and submission to Christ because no one can come to the Father accept through Jesus. Unitarians believe in more than one path leading to God, Universalists don't. We merely disagree on if there is a chance for repentance and thus salvation after mortal death or not. I believe God is sovereign over ALL THINGS, including death. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
We can both discuss this in Glory but I am sure who is right or wrong will have no significance when dwelling with Christ for all eternity(to the ages of the ages). Amazing how the mistranslation of one word and its various tenses can cause all of this strife...
In Christ.
Aside from an interpretation of the "age-during" or "ages of ages", what scriptural support is there for salvation after death?
With regard to mistranslation, it has been often said by USers that "age-during" or "ages of ages" does not actually mean eternal or forever, but that it means only for a time (is limited). However, this cannot apply to God himself in Rev 15:7.
Revelation 15:7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
The same word is used here. Either it is saying God is only "ages of ages"
or it says he is eternal. I tend to be of the opinion "ages of ages" means eternal. You can't have it both ways.
If we're wrong: we're still saved because we STILL believe in Christ's sacrifice to us, and we just thought God was more powerful than what most people assumed. But, seriously, if he really sends people to Hell for eternity without mercy: I want nothing to do with him.
Without mercy????? He isn't going to send anyone to hell, they will be sending themselves for rejecting Him. You want mercy just look at the cross, look at how patient He is waiting for more to be saved. But He is also a just God and He will do what He said in His Word, hell is eternal separation from Him.
Perhaps, in part, the underestimation of the power associated with the God Who is love, strengthens the thought He cannot be ruler over all if He isn't cruel enough. That seems to be the human logic with which the Empires of Man have been based. Mercilous cruelty and greatest force has nevertheless proven unsuccesful to maintain previous Empires of Man. But that where they failed, God will succeed with love?! Ridiculous indeed, to the carnal lmind; but, "With God all things are possible."
Perhaps, in part, the underestimation of the righteousness of God and his desire that all who would believe would have eternal life, strengthens the thought He cannot be truly loving if he expects us to relate and respond to him in order to receive the gracious gift of salvation. That seems to be the human logic with which Adam and Eve were deceived in Eden.
"Surely God didn't say you shall die?" becomes
"Surely God didn't say forever and ever?"
Likewise, "God knows when you eat of it you will be like him [God would be jealous]" becomes
"God will send you to the lake of fire forever because he is cruel!"
Ridiculous indeed because it has been tried before; but "Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap." (Gal 6:7)
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He isn't going to send anyone to hell, they will be sending themselves for rejecting Him. You want mercy just look at the cross, look at how patient He is waiting for more to be saved. But He is also a just God and He will do what He said in His Word, hell is eternal separation from Him.