No greater evil than Eternal Torment (gnostic, world, forgive, reject)

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

Read on. It will be restored to its former evilness and they will be punished. Ezekiel is talking about Jews who were even worse than the people of Sodom, and they will be punished together. Yes, God burned the people of Sodom, and will resurrect them only to burn them again. Everyone will be resurrected to face judgment.

How can you not see how ridiculous this sounds? God is going to restore them just to destroy them again? Unbelievable. How can you view God in this light? You really need to listen to what RodgerTutt is trying to tell you and read the links he is providing....open your eyes!!!

Yes everyone will be resurrected to face judgment, but "judgment" is a good thing, not a bad thing!! You really need to read Rodger's links and think about what you are saying about God.

[rodgertutt]

."THE EONS OF THE EONS" (plural/plural) COMPARED WITH "THE HOLIES OF THE HOLIES" (plural/plural)

There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33, tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In II Kings 8:6 we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.

While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies."

Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons. As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5. Luke 1:33 says of Christ's "kingdom there shall be no end." While the kingdom itself will not end, the reign of Christ for the eons of the eons will end when He delivers up the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-26).

[trettep]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

THE ALL-IMPORTANT KEY ISSUE

The true meaning of “FOREVER AND EVER” Revelation 14:11
Greek: tormented "for the ages of the ages" a limited period of time referring to the last two ages before God consummates His plan for the ages of time to become All in all 1Cor. 15:28. How do we know that? See further on in this message.

All of these combinations are used in the Bible: aion (singular), aions (plural), aion of the aion (singular/singular), aion of the aions (singular/plural), aions of the aions (plural/plural), and aionian (the adjective).
ALL of them refer to a limited period of time.

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.
Comparative Concordance of how the Greek words aion and aionios are translated in various Bible translations

Therefore there is no good argument against God saving all.
See
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
and
Chapter Eleven
and
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

Aionios simply refers to a continuation point not an end point. So aionios is not a limited or unlimited duration. So if I say something is aionios it just means something will exist beyond the boundary of the current age. It doesn't tell us when it will end. The endpoint is CONCEALED from us.

We would never refer to aionios Life (That which Christ brings us) as pertaining to a LIMITED timeframe.

Consider this verse:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The everlasting (aionios) punishment just means that some shall go away into further punishment (beyond this age). And others will go into life eternal (aionios) which means they will receive LIFE BEYOND this age.

When you understand it from this perspective you see that the next age itself is being Heralded and that our attention should be focused upon it. Additionally, it shows that both of these things will exist immediately upon the end of the current age. If it meant limited duration then it would not imply to WHEN the events would occur. Whereas understanding that it is showing the limited duration current age as the source we see that it is fortelling of evens existing and continuing to exist beyond this age.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

How can you not see how ridiculous this sounds? God is going to restore them just to destroy them again?

Believe it or not, but every sinner will face it

How can you view God in this light? You really need to listen to what RodgerTutt is trying to tell you and read the links he is providing....open your eyes!!!

I'd rather read the Bible as opposed to something written by someone who cannot accept the truth of the scriptures.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by trettep

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The everlasting (aionios) punishment just means that some shall go away into further punishment (beyond this age). And others will go into life eternal (aionios) which means they will receive LIFE BEYOND this age.

Same word, same sentence and two completey different translations. How convenient, but that is what it takes to defend the undefendable. You have to get creative to make it fit the story.

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

You have been fed lies.

"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Do you think it's plain water or maybe flavored water? It would be nice if it were strawberry-kiwi, right? You can't have it both ways. If you believe the water is symbolic, why can't you believe the fire is symbolic? Why can't you put away the manmade images you've been taught, give God the benefit of the doubt, and realize that he won't torture people by setting them on fire?

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

I don't see how that scripture prevents God from eventually saving all sciotamicks. I see the "many" here as everyone who needs saving.

I’m glad you don’t believe the Bible teaches eternal torment because I truly believe that doctrine is the world’s greatest evil.

But I cannot see any essential difference between Full Preterists/Covenant Creationists. and Annihilationists.

In both beliefs unbelieving humans cease to exist.

I think God's plan for the ages of time as described by A.E. Knoch, in his introduction to his book ALL IN ALL, is grander and far more glorious than FPCC!

A.E. Knoch wrote:

"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing.

The purpose of God determines human destiny.
It does not depend on our deserts.

The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past.

Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ.
The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment,
but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ’s cross. (Col.1-20).

Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads.
All of God’s purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8).
“In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20).

The terms translated “forever” and “everlasting” and “never” are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered.

They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons.
All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times.

Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.

Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God’s grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28).

I'm glad your glad

AE KOCH is hardly an authority either, but thanks for the ref!

And of course they denote eons or ages, and there is a finite to the age of aionion fire, the body and soul destroyed....the burning flame...the lake of fire and brimstone.....which was ONLY directed at the Jews, the covenantal people, as such is directed in twice dead as well. If you followed strict grammatical hermeneutics you would realize this. Stop imposing your views onto the text. 1 Tim 2 has nothing to do with what you propose either, in regards to a divine act of God in bringing all men to Him. This is quite elemnentary in theology and can be seen at first glance. However, what happens after the final eon and at the onset and prelims of the Age to Come, post parousia, post millenium, and post ROTD (resurrection of the dead ones)? We have a new Heavens and Earth, a New Jerusalem, and some folks outside don't we?

How can you interpret life when the text says death?

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

Can you say it is fair to destroy all people in a flood? Or at Isiah's time send Assyrian army to destroy Jerusalem, kill the men, smash infants, and rape the women? Is it fair? Again, God's ways are not your ways, and you may not find it fair. You can judge God all you want and believe whatever you want, but it won't change the scriptures. Also, he grilled the people in Sodom and Gomorroh. Same God, and you say it is evil.

You do not realize it, but you are trying to use your limited intelligence and sense of fairness to judge God.

You have made this same comparison on many posts. You are in denial if you say that allowing someone to die is the same as endless torture. Endless... Torture.... Being set on fire.... Really think about that.

Was it fair that my son suffered for a long time and passed away as a teenager? IMO, he did not deserve that, but I still love God and knowing he allowed that to happen to my son does not one bit influence my heart to believe that God would torture people endlessly. Death and torture are very different.

I believed like you back then and my son was a believer and strong in faith, so don't think I believe in UR because I was afraid my son would go to hell. In fact, I had sort of a vested interest in the hell doctrine because for a while I thought since he inspired people with his faith and 7 people responded to the gospel because of him, that this gave his death purpose. After I came to the truth that hell was a myth, I could no longer believe his purpose was to help prevent people from going there. But, I still love God with all my heart. I've never thought of him as evil for allowing my son's suffering and death.

Like you, I was in denial about the evilness of "hell" because I just tried not to think about it. I'm surprised that you could spend as much time as you do thinking about it (just from what I've seen on this forum) and not be able to see the true nature of God. It makes we wonder if you are so knee-deep in your commitment to your denomination or doctrine that you are paralyzed from moving away from it.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

You have made this same comparison on many posts. You are in denial if you say that allowing someone to die is the same as endless torture.

Not 'allowing', but causing them to die. It was punishment.

Like you, I was in denial about the evilness of "hell" because I just tried not to think about it.

And now you can't stop talking about it. This thread is just one of countless hell threads started by the believers of UR. They can't get it out of their minds. Isn't that strange? It seems it is the only topic they want to discuss.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

Same word, same sentence and two completey different translations. How convenient, but that is what it takes to defend the undefendable. You have to get creative to make it fit the story.

ETEMOLOGICALLY AIONIOS NEVER MEANS ETERNAL

For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal. See
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

A common argument is that the subject matter necessarily has to change aion from meaning a long period of time to eternal.
This is simply not true.
There are many places in the Bible where the translation of aion as eternal or everlasting makes no sense at all.
But there are no places in the Bible where the translation of aion as a limited period of time does not make perfect sense.
Comparative Concordance of how the Greek words aion and aionios are translated in various Bible translations

To argue that “eternal” punishment must be of unending duration because it is contrasted with “eternal” life (Mt 25:46) misses the point. It fails to recognize that “eternal” life is a quality of relationship with God (Jn. 17:3) and is an end in itself, while “eternal” punishment is God’s corrective discipline and a means to an end. It is the result of the punishment (kolasis aionion) that is “eternal,” not the punishment itself.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

TWO COMMON QUESTIONS
QUESTION ONE:
If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of God come to an end?

ANSWER: Of course God is eternal, but that is not what the use of the word aionios is saying about Him. God is the God of the eons.
• THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING
Literal Translation versus / King James Version
•
Heb.1:2 God made the eons / God made the worlds
I Cor. 2:7 before the eons / before the world
2Tim.1:9 before eonian times / before the world began

• THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
Heb. 9:26 the end of the eons / the end of the world
1 Cor. 10:11 the ends of the eons / the ends of the world
Matt. 24:3 the end of the eon / the end of the world

• HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?
Col.1:26 hid from eons Past / hid from ages
Lu. 20:34 this eon Present / this world
Eph. 2:7 eons to come Future / ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated

• THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS
• Eph.3:8-11 purpose of the eons / eternal purpose
Eph. 1:9-1l; PhiI.2:9-l1; Col.1:l5-21; I Cor. 15:20-28

QUESTION TWO:
If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of the believer come to an end since the word is applied to both the life of the believer, and the punishment of the non-believer?

ANSWER:
While the believer is enjoying aionion life, the unbeliever will experience kolasis aionion Matthew 25:46 (which means age-during corrective chastisement).
Chapter Eleven

Until the time of Augustine, most of the Christian church leaders believed in universalism.
UNIVERSALISM THE PREVAILING DOCTRINE OF THE FIRST 500 YEARS
Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years

Due to the influence of the reasoning of Augustine the church council voted to make eternal torment an official church doctrine.
But even Augustine himself said, “There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments.”

The argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." That is, the last, the final one in order.

How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been vivified, or made alive, IN CHRIST. There will then be no more death. Just as life is destroyed by death, so death is destroyed by life. Our present bodies are mortal and corruptible (1 Cor. 15:44-55), but when mankind is made alive IN CHRIST they will be raised immortal and incorruptible.

Believers do receive aionion life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (I Cor. 15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Aionion life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (I Cor. 15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.

Because of the “eonian” nature of God’s revelation, culminating with the consummation of the ages in 1Corinthians 15, we can see that “eonian life” leads into “eternity” at the end of the ages. Therefore there is no real threat to “eternal life,” even though punishment/correction is not eternal, but only for an age.

There are a number of Greek words that imply eternal but aionios is not one of them.
They are usually translated “indestructible,” “imperishable,” “unfading,” “immortality,” and “incorruptible.” Ro. 1:23; 2:7; 1Cor. 9:25; 15:42, 51-54; He. 7:15,16; 1Pe. 1:3,4; 5:4; 1Ti. 1:17; 6:16; 2Ti. 1:10.

Our hope of immortality does not reside in the word aionios, but in God’s very nature (unfailing love and unlimited power) and promises.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Louis Abbott
An Analytical Study of Words
(especially see the quotes from the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY (OLAM and AIONIOS) STEVENSON
TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study

There is a Greek word that Young translates eternal and that is "aidios" as in Romans 1:20, “eternal power and Godhead.” It can mean eternal unless it is limited by a qualifying phrase.
See Young’s literal translation of the Bible.
It compares with the Hebrew word qedem in Deut. 33:27 which should read
“The eternal (qedem) God is my refuge, and underneath are the age-during (olam) arms. (see Young's literal translation)
The Hebrew word olam compares with the Greek word aionios.
Both of them refer to a limited period of time.

The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Here is the proof
HISTORY OF OPINIONS
and
The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment
and
Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.

If Jesus had wanted to convey the idea of “eternal” He would have used aidios, which was understood to mean eternal by Jesus' contemporaries.
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" also see the following:
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”