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Yes, but you will not find a flawless physical represntation of it on earth, So your whole premise is flawed.
As you argue to point out the flaw in a certain belief system based on your criteria, you bring the logic to full measure that all beliefs systems are flawed, therefore all are guilty.
Well played.
BTW, what exactly do you believe? Are you hesitant to explain this because you know how the people who agree with you NOW will react.
Or are you simply really a christian bearing false witness and justifying it based on your hatred of the idea that Jesus saves all mankind?
True but unless you know Greek and/or Hebrew you will never read the bible the way it was ment to be anyhow. That may be true also but the bible says anyone who alters it will be eternally condemned...therefore even if you are using a bible that has been handed down to you for centuries and told it is true, God isnt going to personally hold you responsible because you could not have known that.
In my personal opinion it is far more dangerous to seek books outside the bible when the bible clearly states you dont need anything but the word of God. My belief system at this moment isnt important, my argument is though and it absolutely topples univesalism. What angers me is the huge amount of deceivers on this board spreading lies...but then again those people exist everywhere, even in churches all over the planet. Most people at heart are foolish and you see manifestation of this everywhere even in christianity. Do you really believe 75% of the American population is actually christian? I mean come on dude, I believe maybe, MAYBE about 5% of them are something close to resembling an actual christian. Also nothing I am posting here is to get agreement out of anyone because I dont care. I dont need reassurance from others when my words are true.
Actually if I were a christian I would be using the bible perfectly to show how universalism is slander. That holds true no matter what or who I am. People who want to know more about me are just anxious to label me off as something so they dont have to listen. "Oh he's a pisces, his beliefs are stupid". "Oh he is an atheist, it means he cant use the bible correctly". None of that holds any merit when you cant dismantle the bible, as I've shown you cant.
I actually am not filled with hatred much like a lot of the universalists on this board who resort to name calling when they are shown how stupid their belief system is. I have no problem with the concept of Jesus saving everyone...and believe that is in his power however, God gives everyone that chance...most reject it and get their punishment accordingly. Also I am not bearing false witness because I havent told any lies, I've merely shown bible verses that prove universalism is crap. I fully expect most universalists though to just write it off because the whole concept of rejecting hell would mean the universalist blocks out large portions of the bible, specifically revelations.
The links I posted show how the Bible got corrupted, making your statement that I am "using sources out side of the Bible" erroneous.
Okay answer me this then. If you believe the bible to be erroneous, which is slander by the way, then why are you posting in christian forums? Why are you listening to anything at all in the bible? If you believe parts of the bible to be untrue you should, if you were intelligent, come to the conclusion that the entire bible is false and you wouldnt be attempting to stake some fake belief system up. After all you just said the bible is erronous, why would you care about any of this at all? That doesnt make any sense at all, just like universalism. It has no bearing in the bible, you need to take your preachings off the christian forums into the agnostic/atheist section where they are much more fitting. After all you just said yourself the bible holds no truth by calling it erroneous.
Edit: And I realize you didnt specifically say the bible is erroneous but my argument however, the argument is essentially bible verses and the very, very easy way they are interpretted. Anyone with any sense can read those passages and come to the same conclusions I have. So in essence you are saying the bible is erroneous.
Calling someone a mormon or universalist isn't name calling to my knowledge.
THE UNDERLYING ATTITUDE OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISTS
I certainly peceive it as "name calling," especially when you declare that we URs are "eternally condemned."
None of us Urs have ever done that to you.
Our strong feelings may have prompted us to say nasty things.
But we have never "eternally condemned" you.
Instead, our underlying attitude has been similar to the attitude of A.E. Knoch, who probably was the best known Christian Biblical Universalist of the last century.
A critic said "Mr. Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."
In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:
"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace. It is only natural for one who thinks Him capable of tormenting His own creatures eternally, to seek to follow His example, and torture His servants here and now. Indeed, it would be strange if it were not so.
The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.
Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.
So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. We recall with joy and satisfaction the great truth that, by God's grace, it is impossible for you to enter into condemnation, no matter how much you may offend Him (Rom.8:1) and the still greater truth that we are saved for grace (Eph.2:8). While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.
We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart." A.E. Knoch
BTW, I would like you to know about this.
"A great introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid Biblical perspective. Highly Recommended!" Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
both of which are excellent expositions on why we URs believe that the Bible correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated teaches universal salvation.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-02-2009 at 10:41 AM..
Reason: deletion
Here is an excellent source scripturally backing up what you said there Ironmaw.
BIBLICAL CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
I have to disagree with you. Evil and uncaring people, especially greedy rich people, WILL feel the torment of Hell.
True but unless you know Greek and/or Hebrew you will never read the bible the way it was ment to be anyhow. That may be true also but the bible says anyone who alters it will be eternally condemned...therefore even if you are using a bible that has been handed down to you for centuries and told it is true, God isnt going to pesonally hold you responsible because you could not have known that.
I'm not sure where people get this eternal condemnation for altering the book. Can you give me a reference to that?
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In my personal opinion it is far more dangerous to seek books outside the bible when the bible clearly states you dont need anything but the word of God. My belief system at this moment isnt important, my argument is though and it absolutely topples univesalism. What angers me is the huge amount of deceivers on this board spreading lies...but then again those people exist everywhere, even in churches all over the planet. Most people at heart are foolish and you see manifestation of this everywhere even in christianity. Do you really believe 75% of the American population is actually christian? I mean come on dude, I believe maybe, MAYBE about 5% of them are something close to resembling an actual christian. Also nothing I am posting here is to get agreement out of anyone because I dont care. I dont need reassurance from others when my words are true.
So in your opinion are self-help books evil or what? You aren't talking about regular books right? I mean do you think it is dangerous to read a history book?
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Actually if I were a christian I would be using the bible perfectly to show how universalism is slander. That holds true no matter what or who I am. People who want to know more about me are just anxious to label me off as something so they dont have to listen. "Oh he's a pisces, his beliefs are stupid". "Oh he is an atheist, it means he cant use the bible correctly". None of that holds any merit when you cant dismantle the bible, as I've shown you cant.
Personally, I think you reject christianity for the very reasons URers have... it doesn't make sense with all that hell-fire mumbo jumbo.
Quote:
I actually am not filled with hatred much like a lot of the universalists on this board who resort to name calling when they are shown how stupid their belief system is. I have no problem with the concept of Jesus saving everyone...and believe that is in his power however, God gives everyone that chance...most reject it and get their punishment accordingly.
There are several posts of yours filled with animosity and phrases like "how stupid their belief system is" and also several posts from self-proclaimed "true" christians with attitude similar to yours. This is just plain humanity, not true of only universalists.
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Also I am not bearing false witness because I havent told any lies, I've merely shown bible verses that prove universalism is crap. I fully expect most universalists though to just write it off because the whole concept of rejecting hell would mean the universalist blocks out large portions of the bible, specifically revelations.
I think my biggest question for you is why you feel so strongly about this. I mean if you were assured of you salvation and came trying to debunk universalism, I could see why, but it seems you have no motive to even respond. Perhaps you could explain to me why you who reject christianity are motivated to uphold the hell-fire view when it is you they say is going to hell.
BTW-any good scholar knows that the "dante's inferno" type of hell is never discussed in the bible. Hades, Sheol, tartarus, and the valley of Hinnom are all erroneously transliterated as hell. The hebrew tanakh is the basis for the bible OT and NT that we have today, yet:
"There is nothing in Hebrew Scripture explicitly mentioning a Lake of Fire or any other form of eternal punishment. Reward and punishment in the Tanakh is usually focused on the nation of Israel as a whole, rather than on the destiny of individual souls.. When Israel was obedient, the nation would possess the land and prosper in it. If not, they would be removed from it for a time, and eventually be restored. This policy is laid down in Deuteronomy 28 and played out in the prophets and historical books. There are occasional hints of an afterlife, such as David's remark after the death of his infant child (2 Samuel 12:23), or Job's proclamation, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and I will see him in the last day." (Job 19:25) " Does it say anything in the Tanach about the Lake of Fire? and How long is forever? (http://www.amfi.org/mailbag/eternalhell.htm - broken link) a website for Jesus believing Jews.
That said it is those who believe in an eternal hell-fire afterlife that are taking men's traditions and adding them to the bible.
i love these ---will god punish the helpless--- posts.
here is what my own god looks like-- standing on the corner dealing out
"punishment and reward".
LOL
True but unless you know Greek and/or Hebrew you will never read the bible the way it was ment to be anyhow.
Well, this argument doesn't hold up. Context and usage determines the meaning behind what you are reading. Upon discovery of the ancient texts it was realized that there was NO culture on earth that spoke either language fluently and the culture of the time was gone as well.
Translation is the only way ANYONE knows what they are reading, so there is NO flawless representation of Gods word on earth and NO ONE speaks inherant ancient greek and Hebrew without that translative factor present.
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That may be true also but the bible says anyone who alters it will be eternally condemned...therefore even if you are using a bible that has been handed down to you for centuries and told it is true, God isnt going to pesonally hold you responsible because you could not have known that.
Well then we have a different premise. If what has been handed down is wrong, then there actually isn't any premise that could state anyone in the modern age could be condemned.
If I am told something based on a flawed representation and I reject it, then I am not held responsible. Universalism cannot be rightly condemned under such circumstances. In fact, the one claiming I am condemned coming from the premise of something that is flawed but it cannot be known for sure, then even that person has not intentionall altered anything and not guilty.
Upon discovering the original texts, no one knew what they said, did the translators know it was Gods word till they were done translating? There is no perfetc translations and all knowledge of what the ancient texts say is based ONLY upon translation.
So your premise is flawed anyway you want to look at it. If universalsism is flawed so is every other belief based upon what we know today to be the bible.
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In my personal opinion it is far more dangerous to seek books outside the bible when the bible clearly states you dont need anything but the word of God.
That may be, but then we are back to the premise, some translations do not speak of hell or eternal damnation. To say that they are not correct based upon "knowing" ancient hebrew or greek is a false argument, because it is the context in which it was translated that caused the selection of the translated word. Translation is the only way anyone on earth can say what it says.
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My belief system at this moment isnt important, my argument is though and it absolutely topples univesalism.
No, it doesn't because your argument is flawed from the start.
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What angers me is the huge amount of deceivers on this board spreading lies...
Then you are spreading one too when you say that universalism teaches that you can murder and it's all ok. You are simply wrong.
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Actually if I were a christian I would be using the bible perfectly to show how universalism is slander.
No, because it is impossible to based a perfect argument on a physically flawed premise.
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That holds true no matter what or who I am. People who want to know more about me are just anxious to label me off as something so they dont have to listen. "Oh he's a pisces, his beliefs are stupid". "Oh he is an atheist, it means he cant use the bible correctly". None of that holds any merit when you cant dismantle the bible, as I've shown you cant.
Sure it does, if you are a Christian in disguise you are bearing a false witness so the premise behind your arguments can be flawed as well which will cause a flaw in your interptetations.
You already have a flawed premise towards universalism in the first place. If you believe universalism is false, then are you talking about Christian Universalism or unitarian Universalism. Either one does NOT teach murder is ok so you have already started off wrong in your premise.
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I actually am not filled with hatred much like a lot of the universalists on this board who resort to name calling when they are shown how stupid their belief system is. I have no problem with the concept of Jesus saving everyone...and believe that is in his power however, God gives everyone that chance...most reject it and get their punishment accordingly. Also I am not bearing false witness because I havent told any lies, I've merely shown bible verses that prove universalism is crap. I fully expect most universalists though to just write it off because the whole concept of rejecting hell would mean the universalist blocks out large portions of the bible, specifically revelations
No, there are translations that do not even contain the word HELL you are already flawed about what you think it means to "know" Ancient Hebrew and Greek and if you think that "knowing" it in the way you talk would mean "hell" is a proper word then your ideaology can be written off entirely because you have no clue of what your talking about.
That would just be in the facts, not unsubstantiated.
No kidding, how can you eternally condemn me if your belief system states there is no hell? The bible states what your fate is, I am merely showing you verses that prove universalism is wrong. You can take that however you wish but I assume you will ignore it, like other universalists, because it doesnt fit your agenda for the easy and perfect religion. I've shown with the bible how your religion is heresy, you continue to believe anyhow, I have nothing else to say to you because its a waste of time. I was however hoping you would talk like a real person instead of just quoting some stuff.
I have to disagree with you. Evil and uncaring people, especially greedy rich people, WILL feel the torment of Hell.
Correction... Evil and uncaring people, especially greedy rich people DO feel the torment of Hell... here and now in their sad lives.
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The underlying attitude of universalists
