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Therefore, when we see in 1 Corthinians 15:24-28 that ''...then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all,'' It in no way implies that Christ gives up His throne.
Therefore, when the universalists say that the word 'forever', or 'eternal' means 'age only' when applied to the fact of Christ reigning forever on His throne, they are quite simply wrong. Christ reigns through out all eternity without end as does the Father.
The full reality is that when Christ defeats the last enemy, death, then He will deliver up the kingdom to ''God even the Father,'' that ''God--[the triune God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] may be all in all.'' The eternal throne is that ''of God and of the Lamb.'' (Revelation 22:1)
And the same word that is used for the duration of God's throne is used for Rev.20:10 where Satan will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Through out all eternity.)
Im sorry friend, but you are wrong ... You didn't even deal with the verse that proves Christ will give up the throne, you should have quoted verse 25 ...
"For he must reign, till (achri - until) he hath put all enemies under his feet."
He will reign until he has put all under his feet. Until implies that after all things are put under his feet he will no longer need to reign, because we will all be in his throne with him, even as he is now in his fathers throne. And we will walk side by side with him as co-heirs and brothers, not as master and subjects. God is making us equal to him in all things, conformed to the perfect image of Christ, that he may be in us even as he is in Christ.
John 10:34 (King James Version)
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Im sorry friend, but you are wrong ... You didn't even deal with the verse that proves Christ will give up the throne, you should have quoted verse 25 ...
"For he must reign, till (achri - until) he hath put all enemies under his feet."
He will reign until he has put all under his feet. Until implies that after all things are put under his feet he will no longer need to reign, because we will all be in his throne with him, even as he is now in his fathers throne. And we will walk side by side with him as co-heirs and brothers, not as master and subjects. God is making us equal to him in all things, conformed to the perfect image of Christ, that he may be in us even as he is in Christ.
John 10:34 (King James Version)
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
I have provided all the scripture that shows that both Christ and the Father rule together through all eternity. The verses state in plain language that they are both on thrones together forever. The passages have been presented, the facts laid out, the truth explained. The issue now is, accept what is revealed in the word of God or ignore what is presented and which is so plainly evident.
I have provided all the scripture that shows that both Christ and the Father rule together through all eternity. The verses state in plain language that they are both on thrones together forever. The passages have been presented, the facts laid out, the truth explained. The issue now is, accept what is revealed in the word of God or ignore what is presented and which is so plainly evident.
You can say whatever you want to, in this case it is rhetorical fallacies based on bad exegesis. He must rulr UNTIL all things are subject to him ... Not any longer than that. Because there will be no more evil or sin, no need for power or authority. God will be all in all, and everyone will be on the level of God. Everyone will be one with God. No more governments, no more division among nations, not more kingdoms, just blissful unity without need for law. Your understanding of God that he is either not able to save all men or not willing, my understanding of God is that he is both able and willing and it is his good pleasure to do so. My understanding of God is far stronger and more loving infinitely than your God. The early Chruch believed the way i Do now, and the way you believe is based on roman Catholic false doctrines which only took over Christianity in the dark ages. That is the fact, you just cant believe it. Your understandingof God is no better that the Islamic Allah.
I suggest the same to you, for God is the savior of all men, especially those that believe.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-01-2009 at 10:31 PM..
I have provided all the scripture that shows that both Christ and the Father rule together through all eternity. The verses state in plain language that they are both on thrones together forever. The passages have been presented, the facts laid out, the truth explained. The issue now is, accept what is revealed in the word of God or ignore what is presented and which is so plainly evident.
It's plainly evident that Jesus gives up his throne to the Father.
The Father gave power to the son and the son is made subject to the Father.
John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Why wouldn't they? it is a very popular, enticing doctine and let's face it not many Christians who believe in hell can fully understand or fully accept this doctrine.
it is not for most people, if it were, universalism would be the mainstream doctrine in this modern times, but it is not.
Nobody or at least few believe he or his beloved ones would go to hell; hell - it are always the others, and it seems many people can live very well with the idea that the others go to hell.
Quote:
The word forever means eternity, through endless ages, eternally.
the English word "forever" is not in the Bible, you can't prove that Hebrew "olam" or Greek "aion" mean endless, when they obviously do not in many instances, olam, aion - the phrase eis ton aiona and the adjective aionios, they are all used in a limited sense in the Bible in several instances.
Can you please provide a list of scriptures to back up your claim that "The word of God is quite clear that only those members of the human race who, while alive on the earth [emphasis mine], make a decision to believe in Christ, are saved."
(BTW, Hebrews 9:27 doesn't count, because it just says that people get judged after they die (once). It doesn't say what happens after the judgment.)
My list of 180 scriptures supporting eventual universal salvation (and thus the view that everybody will eventually accept Christ, in this life or the next) is in Appendix I of this online book: click here.
Romans 5:18, I Cor. 15:22, Col. 1:20, John 12:32 and Romans 11:32,36a seem especially clear.
I’d like to clarify my request, since I don’t think I was very clear …
You stated: <“The word of God is quite clear that only those members of the human race who, while alive on the earth, make a decision to believe in Christ, are saved.”>
Could you please provide a list of scriptures to back up this statement?
For the record, most believers in UR, including myself, already believe that …
A. Salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ (Col. 1:20).
B. Faith is Christ is required for salvation (Rom. 3:22).
C. We will all be judged after we die (Heb. 9:27).
D. Many people will fail this judgment, and therefore will not inherit the kingdom of God (I Cor. 6:9-10).
E. Those who don’t inherit the kingdom of God will be thrown into the lake of fire, where they will be tormented (not tortured) to (or “into”) the ages of the ages. (Rev. 14:19, Rev. 20:10, Rev. 21:8).
So I’m not asking for scriptures supporting these 5 items … you’d just be preaching to the choir.
What I’m asking for is a list of scriptures which will support why you believe …
F. The deadline for accepting Christ is during this earthly lifetime, and
G. The lake of fire punishment never ends (other than repeating your claim that “to the ages of the ages” means “forever”).
Thank you.
Last edited by tm55; 10-06-2009 at 06:02 PM..
Reason: outlining/bullets
You can say whatever you want to, in this case it is rhetorical fallacies based on bad exegesis. He must rulr UNTIL all things are subject to him ... Not any longer than that. Because there will be no more evil or sin, no need for power or authority. God will be all in all, and everyone will be on the level of God. Everyone will be one with God. No more governments, no more division among nations, not more kingdoms, just blissful unity without need for law. Your understanding of God that he is either not able to save all men or not willing, my understanding of God is that he is both able and willing and it is his good pleasure to do so. My understanding of God is far stronger and more loving infinitely than your God. The early Chruch believed the way i Do now, and the way you believe is based on roman Catholic false doctrines which only took over Christianity in the dark ages. That is the fact, you just cant believe it. Your understandingof God is no better that the Islamic Allah.
I suggest the same to you, for God is the savior of all men, especially those that believe.
This post is awesome!
I am a Christian Universalist (after being raised as a fundamentalist, charismatic Christian). Regarding some of the other posts on this thread, I personally have come to believe that some people NEED to believe in hell. God obviously ALLOWED the lie of eternal hell to become the mainstream belief. I can tell you that most of the Christians I know who believe in ET truly and sincerly love God and our thankful for Christ dying for us. Perhaps God simply wants as many as possible to come to Him in this life since that is the best way, not only to inherit the kingdom of Heaven but to lead a victorious and happier life here on Earth. Just a thought.
Another quick thought...to those who have dismissed the facts regarding the majority of the early Church believing in universal reconciliation...think this though, and try some logic on for a change, kay? It's like this....THOSE THAT LIVED DURING THE TIME OF THE ORGINAL LANGUAGES OF THE BIBLE, WHO USED THOSE LANGUAGES---THOUGHT, WROTE AND SPOKE THEM!!---WERE UNIVERSALISTS, BY AND LARGE.
Why do you think that is? And please use consice logic and reason when responding. I'm a fan.
When i saw the truth that He truly is the Savior of all , the change in me was as dramatic as when i first believed in Him.
You see now not only did i believe that He loved sinners sinners but loved them in their sin,somehow for some reason we forget that is actually how God loved us and as a result we forget that's is heart towards those who have yet to believe.
Romans 5
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
As a direct result from this i understood who was i to judge or point the finger at those who are loved by God even in their sin, who was i to do such a thing when clearly He loved them regardless of their condition of their heart. So i began to seee those who are yet to believe, not through my own eyes but my Father's eyes.
Just as the Lord rebuked Peter for calling that which He had made clean unclean(Acts 10), i began to understand seeing the lost as sinners (unclean)was a stumbling block to the Holy Spirit working in me towards them,God had to change Peter's attitude in how He saw us Gentile sinners to make a way rather than a stumbling block in taking the good news to Cornelius a Roman centurion (Gentile)
In chapter V. Two Kindred Topics; where it is talking about Jesus making a proclamation of the Gospel to the dead in Hades; The reality is that Jesus had gone down into Tartarus as 2 Peter 2:4 tells us, to make a proclamation to the fallen angels who were imprisoned there because of their roll in the events of Gen. 6 regarding the Nephilim. Having been imprisoned since that time, they were unaware of the events going on in the world. Jesus Christ went down into Tartarus to proclaim to them that Satan had been defeated by Christ's strategic victory at the Cross. ( See also 1 Peter 3:18-20 and Jude 6). Jesus did NOT give the Gospel to dead unbelieving people in Torments, which is one of the compartments of Hades.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Whom are you learning these things from? This verse has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus going to "hell" to speak to anyone. It is talking about Noah and how he preached salvation to the people of his day by the spirit of God working in him. Like the Jews of the 1st century...they didn't listen either. The spirits in prison were the people of Noah's Day, not people living in some fabled compartment of hell.
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