Jesus Christ is Eternal God (quotes, blessing, mission, saved)
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In other words, you never considered Jesus saying He is not the disciple's God when He said to them:
"I am ascending to your God" (John 20:17).
Their God was not Jesus. Their God was Jesus' God.
If Jesus was their God why did He not say so here?
Just the fact that you say: "You must believe (faith) Christ to be God to be saved" shows you don't have a clue.
Until you can debate properly...you are now being put on ignore. One you can edify the body of Christ around me, I will gladly respond, but until then, all you bring is banter. I am taking the advice of the mods, and ignoring you.
You quote the Latin Vulgate.. Jeromes I assume.. and yet it says plainly that Verses 7 reads in its entirety: For there are three that testify (quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant) You underline there are three... Why?
You have proven that the Latin Vulgate does not record verse 7 as:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Which is what you quoted.
If we take verses 5-9 from Jeromes Latin Vulgate:
quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant
Spiritus et aqua et sanguis et tres unum sunt
si testimonium hominum accipimus testimonium Dei maius est quoniam hoc est testimonium Dei quod maius est quia testificatus est de Filio suo
It reads:
For there are three that testify:
the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three agree.
We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
Who is the water, the blood..the spirit?
Quote:
Now what you are saying is false...
Codex Sinaiticus (c. 350) shows this: 7 For they that testify are three, 8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; because this is the testimony of God that he has testified concerning his Son.
So you are saying that similar language was used but there is no direct quote of the passage in any of those you list.
Are you being deliberately deceptive... because you quoted the full KJV version... not the actual accepted version. Perhaps you are mistaken?
Not deceptive at all.....just showing to you and everyone else that the scripture was quoted by several, prior to 200 AD. Unless you accept this, you will always be blind to the truth. Es la vida!
You must search the truth...unbiased of you preconceived assumptions.
Until you can debate properly...you are now being put on ignore. One you can edify the body of Christ around me, I will gladly respond, but until then, all you bring is banter. I am taking the advice of the mods, and ignoring you.
Yay!
You don't know how relieved I am to not have to be abused by you anymore!
Now run along.
Anybody else want to answer my questions here since sciota can't:
In other words, you never considered Jesus saying He is not the disciple's God when He said to them:
"I am ascending to your God" (John 20:17).
Their God was not Jesus. Their God was Jesus' God.
If Jesus was their God why did He not say so here?
So he is saying that it is impossible for that which is sent forth from God to remain separate from him. And not only that but they cannot then be said to be one and the same.
He is definitely arguing that three (or two or eight) cannot equal one yet remain separate. That in fact, they are then worshiping three or two or eight separate gods...
To be honest... I don't think it's at all clear what he's arguing in that section. Check this out Kat...
"Jesus Christ was not a mere man, begotten from Joseph in the ordinary course of nature, but was very God, begotten of the Father most high, and very man, born of the Virgin."
Actually Eusebius, I decided, that you and many others, still need the help of Jesus, and I removed you from my IGGY list, because I feel you are like a lost little sheep in the forest, and I cannot discount you, or anyone else for that matter.
You can insult me all you want, but it is God and Jesus that know your heart, and I won't succumb to the fruit you feed here, because the fruit I eat is only from Jesus, and it taste so sweet.
You don't know how relieved I am to not have to be abused by you anymore!
Now run along.
Anybody else want to answer my questions here since sciota can't:
In other words, you never considered Jesus saying He is not the disciple's God when He said to them:
"I am ascending to your God" (John 20:17).
Their God was not Jesus. Their God was Jesus' God.
If Jesus was their God why did He not say so here?
Because Jesus was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. He said, ''...I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my breathren, and say to them, ''I ascend to My Father and your Father (in other words 'Our Father') and My God and your God.'' (in other words, 'Our God') John 20:17.
In hypostatic union as the God-Man, Jesus was speaking as a man, not as God.
Unless you open your eyes and understand that Jesus Christ is the unique person of the universe; both eternal and infinite God, and true humanity, in one person, you will never understand so simple a thing as John 20:17.
I was asking you people to provide an explanation.
Mike explained it well.....since you left out his humanity...as a man:
"...but go to my bretheren...."
Jesus had a specific mission for Mary to perform in this passage:
She is to go to the other disciples and inform them that she has seen the risen Lord, and He is ascending to the Father.....consummating the kingdom of Heaven...the New Covenant realization....Daniel 7 and Revelation 20.
Jesus here speaks of the ascension in the present tense - ἀναβαίνω.
Luke also records this in Acts 1, that after forty days of the post-resurrection events and appearances, Jesus was taken up out of the sight and veiled from his followers by a cloud....Acts 1:9-11.....and the same way He would return to judge the nation of Israel..."coming in the clouds" to establish the New Heaven and Earth at the realized abolishment of Temple worship in 70 AD....also noted again in Daniel 7, and many other texts throughout the New Testament.
There is a useful distinction between the ascension, and is to be rightly understood in this pretense as the glorification of Jesus in the presence of the Father. This ascension is to be understood as a levitation, symbolizing the end of the appearances and events of the resurrected Jesus to the disciples and His followers. In the Fourth Gospel, the death, resurrection, ascension, and exaltation of Jesus to the Father’s right hand are all portrayed as one unit, often under the term “glorification.”
This suggests that John is thinking of Jesus’ ascension here in 20:17 in the present tense and sense of glorification rather than a levitation process.
It is a process that begun on the cross and culminating in the presence of the Father. This emphasis neither precludes nor contradicts the ascension recorded by Luke in Acts 1, but instead emphasizes the triune nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the establishment of the kingdom for ever and ever.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-18-2009 at 03:24 PM..
Reason: spelling again :(
Because Jesus was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity. He said, ''...I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my breathren, and say to them, ''I ascend to My Father and your Father (in other words 'Our Father') and My God and your God.'' (in other words, 'Our God') John 20:17.
In hypostatic union as the God-Man, Jesus was speaking as a man, not as God.
Unless you open your eyes and understand that Jesus Christ is the unique person of the universe; both eternal and infinite God, and true humanity, in one person, you will never understand so simple a thing as John 20:17.
Actually, Jesus spoke those words as the risen Lord Who has fully crucified the flesh. He was not speaking from the standpoint of His humanity but from the standpoint of His new humanity.
"Hypostatic union" is an unscriptural term. It is a form of unsound words not taught by the holy spirit.
"infinite God" is also an unscriptural term and a form of unsound words.
1Co 2:12-14 Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God, (13) which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words." (14) Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
1Ti 6:3-5 If anyone is teaching differently and is not approaching with sound words, even those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching in accord with devoutness, (4) he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions, (5) altercations of men of a decadent mind and deprived of the truth, inferring that devoutness is capital."
Here is more proof that Christ is saying these things not from His humanity by from His spiritual side:
Rev 3:2 Become watchful, and establish the rest who were about to be dying; for I have not found your acts completed in the sight of My God."
Rev 3:12 '"The one who is conquering, him will I be making a pillar in the temple of My God, and he may be coming out nevermore, and I will be writing on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which is descending out of heaven from My God, and My new name."
Jesus is not the disciples' God but Jesus' God is the disciples' God and Jesus has a God too which is the disciples' God.
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