In deep thought about the Trinity (Epistles, believers, Christian, Lord)

[lifesigns64]

Picture this:

We have a cupcake, only one of its kind.

It's all alone on the plate. Next moring, two cupcakes are there.

No one made or bought or created the second cupcake. Supposed the 2nd cupcake was beogotten from the first.

The first cupcake's name is Number 1
The second Cupcake's Name is Number 2

There are two cupcakes . . . but they are named different names . . .but number 2 was (without human explanation) brought out of Cupcake number 1 . . . . so number 2 and number 1 have the same ingredients. There is only ONE oroginal, but because two was brought out of number 1, that cupcake is separate but the same . . .

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by june 7th

Or, to put it another way....Upon conception, the fetus comes into being. -Is it a separate, distinct entity? The answer goes to the heart of the question:

So how can you have an "is" and an "is not" that is all the while connecting (or connected to) the same being? Simple. You do. That fetus "is" and "is not" you. It is in a state of merger with you, inter-dependent on and with you up until the moment of birth, at which point it becomes "separate from." (Analogous to the trinity, here...) The fetus exists for nine months in a state of undifferentiation. Fetus and mother are "One." At some point along the way, I can become aware of movement (fetus moving, kicking) but yet, I am also totally aware of the fact that it is not a separate, distinct entity as yet.

June sees that our physical conception (joining of sperm and egg) and our status in pregnancy is analogous to our spiritual conception (at birth) and our life in our physical body as the "pregnancy" stage with us as maturing spiritual embryos destined for rebirth as Spirit. We are as ignorant about what that life as Spirit will be like as a human embryo is about what this life will be like . . . hence the confusion.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828

I have many examples you refuse to see, let alone what I provided.

I saw your examples and to someone predisposed to believing the trinity they seem to back it up but if you don't see a trinity in the first place non of those verses introduce it... Does that make sense.. In other words the idea might seem to be validated by certain verses but if you did believe a trinity already would you feel those verses indicated one?

I also showed you an error that you are believing. You say you even try to understand come translations to a certain degree, yet it doesn't look like you did much research on what begotten means.

Are you talking about begotten or only begotten? Because begotten itself means to bear, bring forth, produce....

monogenes is used also in Hebrews 11:17 about Isaac.. It denotes a relationship between God and Abraham...thus Isaac as well since we know that Isaac was not Abraham's only begotten son nor was he the first born son... but the birthright passed to him rather than Ishmael.

But Isaac was not his father who begot him...

The word doesn't even mean born, it means unique, or one and only. Like I have said Jesus is the unique, one and only Son of God.

Like I said above.. it may imply a relationship that is unique but it still means produced.. perhaps produced in favor but still produced.

You say in error that Jesus was not before He was begotten, Jesus even says that He came from heaven.

Tell me the definition of the greek word ouranos for heaven in John 3:13...

It is simple things like you say, which you seem to not do, simply read scripture.

Like I said.. if you go at scripture with the trinity in mind some verses seem to back it up.. but where is the starting point for the trinity in the bible.. where is it taught to begin with?

So, who is right you or Jesus, well I take my chances with Jesus?

Even though Jesus never stated there are three in one, nor that he was anyone's God?

You say Jesus was not before He was begotten, but you don't understand what begotten means.

Jesus says:

John 6:32-35

.................................. My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He (Jesus) who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world

Then they said to Him, Lord give us this bread always. And Jesus answered I am the bread of Life.

John 6:38

For I have come from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who cent me.

In order to understand, you should begin in your error of understanding certain scripture. Because you are not doing what you say is simple, by understanding what is being provided.

See above comments.

There are others that try to discredit and say that God has sent many, which is true. God does send many men, but none of them were brought from Heaven. God called them while on earth.

Father (said Jesus), glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world (Kosmon) was made." (John 17:5)

"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24...

I think sometimes with the trinity in mind you read the verses in that light but they don't have to mean what you say.. It is God's glory given to Jesus and God loved him before the world was made.

If you had bother to look at John 6:38 in greek and actually tried to understand it. In greek it actually says that Jesus stepped out of heaven, and this word means to decend.

John 6:38

καταβέβηκα -means to go down, decend. So, this is what Jesus said that He did. He came down, decended down from heaven. You said that He was born, which is wrong. When you look at God's Word with a carnal mind you will mess yourself up.

And I see that the carnal mind sees heaven as a place. God is everywhere at once therefore he has no dwelling place. There are ample OT verses that state this. So when you read heaven you think of a place. When I read heaven I think of the air or sky or from God.. not a place with pearly gates like the fairy tales. So spiritually Jesus is saying that the came from God... Now does that mean he is God? No.. Isaac was the only begotten son of Abraham... Isaac came from God in that his birth was a miracle.. right? Yet Isaac is not God nor is he Abraham. I think you confuse the terms because one could say that Isaac descended from heaven as he was an answer to prayer and came from God.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by lifesigns64

Picture this:

We have a cupcake, only one of its kind.

It's all alone on the plate. Next moring, two cupcakes are there.

No one made or bought or created the second cupcake. Supposed the 2nd cupcake was beogotten from the first.

The first cupcake's name is Number 1
The second Cupcake's Name is Number 2

There are two cupcakes . . . but they are named different names . . .but number 2 was (without human explanation) brought out of Cupcake number 1 . . . . so number 2 and number 1 have the same ingredients. There is only ONE oroginal, but because two was brought out of number 1, that cupcake is separate but the same . . .

That seems close to defining the spirit of God as separate from God.. but Jesus was of a different substance. Right? So how does that explain Jesus being God?

[june 7th]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

However, in your analogy of the baby in the womb.. that child emerges as it's own person and never returns to the womb.

Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

If you can't confound the the persons nor divide the substance, then how is it that we cannot say that Jesus is the Father?

So how can one not split up the persons of the trinity by confusing them (like the Father is the Son) yet they cannot be separated either?

Big time DISCLAIMER: June's going to take another shot at this one, but rest assured, she hasn't a clue what it is that she means, because she can't 'explain' how she knows it. (Hence, she continues to question her sanity.)

In the analogy I used, forget about the end stage of giving birth. It's more the neo-natal state that (maybe?) proves the point I was trying to make. The fetus and the mother are joined. They are One. The fetus is inter/intra dependent on the mother. You cannot possibly separate the two, yet in some sense, they are "two" beings, two entities. --Analogous to the trinity.

Think through the above analogy, but imagine carrying twins. You and your twins, prior to birth are "one." --Yet you are three 'separate, distinct' entities within that oneness. = "trinity"

I don't know...

--Just some weird atheist here, who -for reasons unknown even to herself- finds the concept of the trinity to 'make sense' to her. Probably due to the question of "how" being very analytical in nature. Metaphysical thought is the same thing; abstract and analytical.

[Reverend1111]

The trinity is a mistake of the writers of the bible. There is no trinity - only one God, the Father. He is one and alone. Jesus is His teacher of truth, the Holy Spirit is His messenger and dispenser of Love to mankind. We are only His instruments in bringing man to a union with Him. Jesus is not the equal of our Father - He is the only true God. Jesus came from the spirit world to earth and took the form of man, but He did not become a God - only the son of our Father. We also lived as a spirit in that kingdom, and took the form of man merely as a son of our Father. We are the same as Jesus is, except as to spiritual development, and we may become as greatly developed as Jesus.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by pcamps

I find it strange that you are repeating what you have learnt from man , rather than learning by the Sprit what the word has to say about it .I also find it hard to understand that you do not know we are becoming what He is.

We are the sons of God ,Jesus said to the jews He was God's son and the jews considered it blaspemy , do you consider it blasphemy that i can call myself a son of God ?

We are little gods ???????????? where does it say this ????

The scriptures clearly tell us we go through the same process Jesus went through

7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.Hebrews 5:7,8.9

For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.g And by him we cry, “Abba,h Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10 verse 14

18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflecta the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. (In otherwords we are becoming what He is) 2 Cor 3 : 18

And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit; 1 Cor 6 : 17 (I and the Father are one)

See ye what love the Father hath given to us, that children of God we may be called . 1 John 3 : 1

There are dozens of scriptures that tell us that we are becoming what He the son is.

When we see him we shall be like Him.

Finally do you not think this is kind of odd for John the disciple who lay on his bosom (how closer at that time could he get) to say this ?.

1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

I thought John had seen Him how He was ?

When we begin to understand that we are one in Spirit , we will begin to understand that God is one . We have this habit of looking at our own miserable short comings and get diverted from the the truth that oneness is in Spirit and not in the flesh.

I am not repeating what man have taught me. I don't read scripture with a carnal mind. I understand to take God at what He says, and understand.

You posted all of this and this has nothing to do with the scripture we are talking about. Everything that you posted is not addressing the what God is saying about calling them gods. Like I said before I see why you are confused. By looking at what Jesus is saying is commom sense to what He is referring to.

You seem so confused you go from Jesus talking about gods, to co-heirs and made in His image, because you don't understand what Jesus is saying in the scripture and it shows. It is pointless when you are talking about someone on one issue, and the person goes off on a tangent to try to prove their point talking about the wrong thing.

The point is Jesus called them gods, and God already said what that meant. Yes, we are co-heirs, and made in His image. Jesus is talking about something something different, and you are trying to prove a point because you don't want to admit your error in looking at that verse. You saw the word god and took it for granted and misunderstood what Jesus was saying, just like they were.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828

I am not repeating what man have taught me. I don't read scripture with a carnal mind. I understand to take God at what He says, and understand.

You posted all of this and this has nothing to do with the scripture we are talking about. Everything that you posted is not addressing the what God is saying about calling them gods. Like I said before I see why you are confused. By looking at what Jesus is saying is commom sense to what He is referring to.

Every scripture i quoted has everything to do with what Jesus said about calling them gods ,you obviously cannot see it and i don't understand why .

No confusion at all, i fully understand just as Jesus is a son of God so am i , and like i have already said to you there are dozens of scriptures that confirm this.Do you like the jews consider that i am being blasphemes for saying this ? You see we are sons in the exact same way Jesus is (read the above scriptures i quoted), does this make us God ?,of cause not.

I have never ever heard a clear explanation of the doctrine of the trinity , and all who believe it confuse themselves by trying to explain it .

[Miss Shawn_2828]

monogenes is used also in Hebrews 11:17 about Isaac.. It denotes a relationship between God and Abraham...thus Isaac as well since we know that Isaac was not Abraham's only begotten son nor was he the first born son... but the birthright passed to him rather than Ishmael.

Actually the arguement that you got that from, you would benefit in seeing that they did not place Abraham or others who begot on the same level as Jesus. I find it intersting that I can find all of you arguements from other sites word for word. Do you not do your own research and unable to put things into your own words.

Like I said above.. it may imply a relationship that is unique but it still means produced.. perhaps produced in favor but still produced.

Like I said before for you to say that it is important to go back and research it is the hebrew and greek langauge, you lack to do that in this issue. Because it is very clear and you seem to not want to admit that. By saying it may impy, is sounding like you didn't do much research on this.

I think sometimes with the trinity in mind you read the verses in that light but they don't have to mean what you say.. It is God's glory given to Jesus and God loved him before the world was made.

Once again all you have to do is do a little research like you said that you do. The thing is I am not making the verse say anything, I am actually doing the research and looking to what the verse is actually saying. You plainly are not doing what you clearly stated what you were doing. You are asking people to provide I guess what you say is proof. But when someone provides what they have actually researched, you only come back to say, I don't think, and I don't see, but you are not saying I have researched and found, I don't see because I actually went and done this or that. I have found you do in the past throw a greek or hebrew word here or there. But when it comes down to actually putting that to use well you don't seem to do much of what you say that we should do.

And I see that the carnal mind sees heaven as a place. God is everywhere at once therefore he has no dwelling place. There are ample OT verses that state this. So when you read heaven you think of a place. When I read heaven I think of the air or sky or from God.. not a place with pearly gates like the fairy tales. So spiritually Jesus is saying that the came from God... Now does that mean he is God? No.. Isaac was the only begotten son of Abraham... Isaac came from God in that his birth was a miracle.. right? Yet Isaac is not God nor is he Abraham. I think you confuse the terms because one could say that Isaac descended from heaven as he was an answer to prayer and came from God.

The funny thing is the sky is a type of heaven. You must didn't research much of that either. There are heavens, I will let you do the research on understanding that. I don't confuse the words, you simply don't research the words or understanding their meaning. God is clear on His word. You really to entertain me. I now see from someone who uses certain greek and hebrew terms, haven't actually did that much research.

Yes, we will agree to disagree, because you Kat have shown that you haven't done that much research on what you say we should go back too. I was actually excited when you started to use the greek and hebrew terms, because I actually thought you was going to present your aguement with facts by from what you were using. But I found out that was only talk and copy and paste.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Every scripture i quoted has everything to do with what Jesus said about calling them gods ,you obviously cannot see it and i don't understand why .

No confusion at all, i fully understand just as Jesus is a son of God so am i , and like i have already said to you there are dozens of scriptures that confirm this.Do you like the jews consider that i am being blasphemes for saying this ? You see we are sons in the exact same way Jesus is (read the above scriptures i quoted), does this make us God ?,of cause not.

I have never ever heard a clear explanation of the doctrine of the trinity , and all who believe it confuse themselves by trying to explain it .

The funny thing is we are not taking about the trinity you and I, we are talking about how God used the word god. You once again go off on another issue. LOL, we are sons and daughters of God, I never said that, we were talking about god. Never mind, debating with you is like debating with someone who is add. You talk about everything but the issue.