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It can't be correct unless Jesus meant to imply that there was a home of the gods or God. Jesus would not say that because it is clearly taught in the OT that God encompasses the universe that he is bigger than the heavens and the earth... he has no where to lay his head (if he had one)...
So when you say to me that the son of God would refer to a Greek religious view such as carnal men at that time believe.. I must think that Jesus either used their own language (primitive but they understood) to describe what they know or that Jesus was not referring to a place that God would fit.. dwell...
The problem with the first one is that Jesus was speaking to Jews who knew that God could not be contained in a building let alone sitting in the clouds... if they knew scripture which according to their culture, they did.
Jesus is not talking about a place at all but heaven as the gospel. Notice in the definition of the root word of ouranou and ouranon...according to strongs anyway..."by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity)" So therefore it is quite possible that you are mistaken about the meaning here. You state that this definition only applies to ouranon yet we can see that both are singular and yet the case is different.. One accusative and one genitive.
So was Jesus lying? No of course not... Is Miss Shawn perhaps in error... possibly. Could I be wrong? Yes, I very well could.. but my logic is sound and doesn't include a God that can sit anywhere because he is God and not a human.
I would encourage you to do more research because both words are not singular.
You still didn't answer my question. If Jesus said that He ascended from heaven, what is he saying? I'm actually getting very tired and about to go to bed, but would like to hear your words, and the other post you didn't answer. If Jesus is not talking about a place then where is He saying that He came from? We are not talking about your logic but what scripture is saying. Show me scripture that says that Jesus was not talking about a place. So, if you don't believe in heaven, you are not believing in scripture.
Quote:
Jesus is not talking about a place at all but heaven as the gospel.
Show me scripture to back this up. Do you not believe that heaven is an actual place?
Are you saying that God is not in heaven?
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 11-25-2009 at 12:54 AM..
nowhere,I don`t think. What do you think makes up a man? It`s not the body, I think you would agree. so what exactly is a human being?
That's what I am saying...
It is said in Genesis that we become souls upon the breath of God. Therefore we must all have the breath of God in order to be considered living. I believe that every human being has a piece (the breath of) God within him. So to me when you say that Jesus has a part of God in him.. well that just seems normal that he would. So when I see Jesus.. I see a man who took that breath of God and increased it. Letting it take over even his thoughts and speech. I believe we can do that too.. but the faith it would take in God is enormous. To be a man and sinless is the greatest testament to the power of God there is. IMO
So I think that is why I have a hard time seeing what you are saying and also the trinity. If the breath of God is actually God's spirit.. and that is what I believe.. then the whole trinity falls to pieces.. wouldn't you say? For me anyway.. because I can't seem to get past that point.
You still didn't my question. If Jesus said that He ascended from heaven, what is he saying? I'm actually getting very tired and about to go to bed, but would like to hear your words, and the other post you didn't answer. If Jesus is not talking about a place then where is He saying that He came from? We are not talking about your logic but what scripture is saying. Show me scripture that says that Jesus was not talking about a place.
Ok.. first take a look at 1 Kings 8:27
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
then look at Hebrews 9:24
For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.
Now here is the presence of God... described as entering heaven.... Heaven here is ouranon and you state, "Ouranon the word means pursue a journey one has already entered to go beyound, physical life. To lead or order ones life."
So the apostles must not have believed in an actual heaven if what you say is true...because reading the verse as it is seems to indicate heaven as a place, doesn't it? Yet with your definition of ouranon.. it cannot mean a place.
So then let us look at Jesus' words:
Matthew 13:45
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls."
The word heaven here is also ouranon...
My point being that God is bigger that heaven or the highest heaven. He doesn't dwell anywhere. So when Jesus states that he came down from heaven... I would tend to go with the definition you provide for ouranon.. otherwise it just means sky.. there is no abode of the gods/God and I believe Jesus knew that.
Ok.. first take a look at 1 Kings 8:27
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
then look at Hebrews 9:24
For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.
Now here is the presence of God... described as entering heaven.... Heaven here is ouranon and you state, "Ouranon the word means pursue a journey one has already entered to go beyound, physical life. To lead or order ones life."
So the apostles must not have believed in an actual heaven if what you say is true...because reading the verse as it is seems to indicate heaven as a place, doesn't it? Yet with your definition of ouranon.. it cannot mean a place.
So then let us look at Jesus' words:
Matthew 13:45
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls."
The word heaven here is also ouranon...
My point being that God is bigger that heaven or the highest heaven. He doesn't dwell anywhere. So when Jesus states that he came down from heaven... I would tend to go with the definition your provide for ouranon.. otherwise it just means sky.. there is no abode of the gods/God and I believe Jesus knew that.
You say that God can't dwell anywhere, are you saying that He can't dwell in heaven? Are you saying that God is not in heaven?
Jesus was very well talking about an actual place, even if you don't want to admit it.
heaven-ouranou-
heavens-ouranon- as you see God created the heavens. It is not hard to see the difference
Actually you are wrong and trying to twist my words. To pursue a journey beyound physical life, does not say anything about heaven not being a real place. Only you trying to make it seem that way
I am still waiting for you to answer 242, we are not getting anywhere here. You simply do as I have said before. You make every attempt to try to discredit what Jesus is saying. You simply twist the words of Jesus.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 11-25-2009 at 01:12 AM..
NO Kat you are wrong and you are simply not answering my question.
Show me where the verse says that Jesus decended in flesh, it does not say. It says that Jesus decended from heaven.
Now, you see in verse 51 were Jesus say that you must eat of my flesh and drink of my blood. Jesus had made it clear in this context that eternal life is gained by believing. The verse is actually saying that Jesus death must be appropriate by faith by each individual.
You are reading the verse and reading it wrong. No, I am not saying that Jesus decended in flesh because that is not what the scripture says.
I don't have to argue with what 51 says, because it is not saying what you are trying to make it say.
I will ask you again if what Jesus is saying is wrong, tell me why He didn't ascend from heaven. The scripture does not say that He ascended from heaven in flesh, which I don't believe that He did.
John 6
33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.â€
35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.†42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?†43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,†Jesus answered. 44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life.49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.â€
The bread that came down from heaven throughout this whole passage is Jesus' flesh..
So you are saying that this passage means that Jesus' flesh came down from heaven... right?
33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” 43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life.49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
The bread that came down from heaven throughout this whole passage is Jesus' flesh..
So you are saying that this passage means that Jesus' flesh came down from heaven... right?
I already answered this question and will give it to you again.
NO Kat you are wrong and you are simply not answering my question.
Show me where the verse says that Jesus decended in flesh, it does not say. It says that Jesus decended from heaven.
Now, you see in verse 51 were Jesus say that you must eat of my flesh and drink of my blood. Jesus had made it clear in this context that eternal life is gained by believing. The verse is actually saying that Jesus death must be appropriate by faith by each individual.
You are reading the verse and reading it wrong. No, I am not saying that Jesus decended in flesh because that is not what the scripture says.
I don't have to argue with what 51 says, because it is not saying what you are trying to make it say.
I will ask you again if what Jesus is saying is wrong, tell me why He didn't ascend from heaven. The scripture does not say that He ascended from heaven in flesh, which I don't believe that He did.
Jesus says that I am the bread, He doesn't say that His flesh came down from heaven. Jesus was a Spirit in heaven.
Now you tell me how you can argue against what Jesus is saying?
It is said in Genesis that we become souls upon the breath of God. Therefore we must all have the breath of God in order to be considered living. I believe that every human being has a piece (the breath of) God within him. So to me when you say that Jesus has a part of God in him.. well that just seems normal that he would. So when I see Jesus.. I see a man who took that breath of God and increased it. Letting it take over even his thoughts and speech. I believe we can do that too.. but the faith it would take in God is enormous. To be a man and sinless is the greatest testament to the power of God there is. IMO
So I think that is why I have a hard time seeing what you are saying and also the trinity. If the breath of God is actually God's spirit.. and that is what I believe.. then the whole trinity falls to pieces.. wouldn't you say? For me anyway.. because I can't seem to get past that point.
I don`t believe in the trinity. I see Jesus like I see any man,EXCEPT...he was born from above FIRST. He is and was what we will be eventually. He was that from the beginning. We are not. We are giving life at birth and then slowly conformed. He was not conformed. He didn`t go through the process that man goes through to be a child of God. He was begotten as perfect,totally matured as the exact image of God. We are not in the exact image of God when we are first conceived. But we are born from the earth and God puts his presence within us at that time. With Jesus,he was a part of God from eons past. He was the one who created Adam. He was the being through which the Father created. Sort of in the same way that God uses men and women to procreate. Children are brought into the world through their mother. The universe and everything else was brought into existence through Jesus. Though Jesus is his earthly name. God put his perfect image inside a man`s body and called him Jesus.
If Jesus was just a mere man,there is no way he could have understood that he was the messiah. He told peter that satan wanted to sift him like wheat. he talked about the things that would happen to him. He talked about future events. He talked about the resurrection and what God`s kingdom was like. The only way he knew the future and knew about this kingdom was because he had already experienced it.. He wasn`t just born and in 30 years developed some special knowledge and able to predict the future. He was born from above and came to earth inside of a human body to relate to man and tell us about the kingdom. He was not a mere human like you and me just coming into existence at a physical birth.He was already in existence in the heavenly spiritual realm with God the Father.
Now the glory of the Father is restored in him like it was before the world was. Just like the scripture I gave earlier.
I know you don`t think it was any great feat for him to live a sinless life because he wasn`t a carnal man from the beginning like we are. I think that is true in a lot of respects. He was already perfect . He was begotten as perfect. I know the bible says he was tempted in every way like we are. But I think the meaning of that has been misinterpreted. He had a physical body so he felt hunger,pain,thirst, heartache,physical ailments,etc. But his mental capacity and his knowledge of having experienced the future and knowing God in his fullness,made it different. He was born from above.
No man could have lived and persevered like Jesus. No man could talk so boldly about the world to come. No man could live a sinless life. No man could have overcome the temptations in this life. Only someone who had experienced the future and glory of God and what lay in store would be able to persevere. Someone who was perfect inside. Jesus was perfect because he was made that way. His earthly body wasn`t perfect. It was like any other human body. But the real person inside of that body was perfect and all knowing. That`s why he could endure the pain, suffering, and temptations of this world. Because he was not of this world. We are of this world when we are born. But we become born again. Born from above. Jesus was ALREADY born from above. That`s what made him different.
You say that God can't dwell anywhere, are you saying that He can't dwell in heaven? Are you saying that God is not in heaven?
Yes that is exactly what the scripture states. That God is bigger that the heavens.
Jer. 23:24 Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.
Quote:
Jesus was very well talking about an actual place, even if you don't want to admit it.
If Jesus was then he was not the scholar of the OT that I thought he was because it is pretty clear that God is bigger than the heavens and earth.
Quote:
heaven-ouranou-
heavens-ouranon- as you see God created the heavens. It is not hard to see the difference
Actually you are wrong and trying to twist my words. To pursue a journey beyound physical life, does not say anything about heaven not being a real place. Only you trying to make it seem that way
You can say what you will now but you did say that the use of ouranon is figurative not literal... That is the gist of "to pursue a journey beyond physical life" right?
I mean really how can you say that God who is spirit will dwell anywhere? He is everywhere...in everything... I don't see how you can say that there is a real place called heaven.. because to me it is simply a matter of looking into the OT to see that the God of Abraham was bigger than the universe.. not contained in any one place, whether heaven or whatever abode of the gods/God you say.
Quote:
I am still waiting for you to answer 242, we are not getting anywhere here. You simply do as I have said before. You make every attempt to try to discredit what Jesus is saying. You simply twist the words of Jesus.
I repeat what you say (copy and paste) and yet you still deny what you said. That is fine.. you can say what you will. It is all there for whoever wants to read it now.
Yes that is exactly what the scripture states. That God is bigger that the heavens.
Jer. 23:24 Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.
If Jesus was then he was not the scholar of the OT that I thought he was because it is pretty clear that God is bigger than the heavens and earth.
You can say what you will now but you did say that the use of ouranon is figurative not literal... That is the gist of "to pursue a journey beyond physical life" right?
I mean really how can you say that God who is spirit will dwell anywhere? He is everywhere...in everything... I don't see how you can say that there is a real place called heaven.. because to me it is simply a matter of looking into the OT to see that the God of Abraham was bigger than the universe.. not contained in any one place, whether heaven or whatever abode of the gods/God you say.
I repeat what you say (copy and paste) and yet you still deny what you said. That is fine.. you can say what you will. It is all there for whoever wants to read it now.
Heaven is a place where God is......
Psalm 14:2, Ecc 5:2, Jeremiah 23:24 just a few. God is in heaven. You provide a scripture that says that God fills the heaven, which show that He indeed is in heaven. God is everywhere, and heaven. Once again trying to twist my words, LOL. Yea, we will disagree, you over look scripture.......... You desperately over look everything that everyone here has provided for you. That is your choice.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 11-25-2009 at 01:42 AM..
I don`t believe in the trinity. I see Jesus like I see any man,EXCEPT...he was born from above FIRST. He is and was what we will be eventually. He was that from the beginning. We are not. We are giving life at birth and then slowly conformed. He was not conformed. He didn`t go through the process that man goes through to be a child of God. He was begotten as perfect,totally matured as the exact image of God. We are not in the exact image of God when we are first conceived. But we are born from the earth and God puts his presence within us at that time. With Jesus,he was a part of God from eons past. He was the one who created Adam. He was the being through which the Father created. Sort of in the same way that God uses men and women to procreate. Children are brought into the world through their mother. The universe and everything else was brought into existence through Jesus. Though Jesus is his earthly name. God put his perfect image inside a man`s body and called him Jesus.
If Jesus was just a mere man,there is no way he could have understood that he was the messiah. He told peter that satan wanted to sift him like wheat. he talked about the things that would happen to him. He talked about future events. He talked about the resurrection and what God`s kingdom was like. The only way he knew the future and knew about this kingdom was because he had already experienced it.. He wasn`t just born and in 30 years developed some special knowledge and able to predict the future. He was born from above and came to earth inside of a human body to relate to man and tell us about the kingdom. He was not a mere human like you and me just coming into existence at a physical birth.He was already in existence in the heavenly spiritual realm with God the Father.
Now the glory of the Father is restored in him like it was before the world was. Just like the scripture I gave earlier.
I know you don`t think it was any great feat for him to live a sinless life because he wasn`t a carnal man from the beginning like we are. I think that is true in a lot of respects. He was already perfect . He was begotten as perfect. I know the bible says he was tempted in every way like we are. But I think the meaning of that has been misinterpreted. He had a physical body so he felt hunger,pain,thirst, heartache,physical ailments,etc. But his mental capacity and his knowledge of having experienced the future and knowing God in his fullness,made it different. He was born from above.
No man could have lived and persevered like Jesus. No man could talk so boldly about the world to come. No man could live a sinless life. No man could have overcome the temptations in this life. Only someone who had experienced the future and glory of God and what lay in store would be able to persevere. Someone who was perfect inside. Jesus was perfect because he was made that way. His earthly body wasn`t perfect. It was like any other human body. But the real person inside of that body was perfect and all knowing. That`s why he could endure the pain, suffering, and temptations of this world. Because he was not of this world. We are of this world when we are born. But we become born again. Born from above. Jesus was ALREADY born from above. That`s what made him different.
Yeah.. I see what you are saying.. I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one... But either way at least we do agree that the Holy Spirit is really just God and not a separate person... right?
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