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The work of Christ on the Cross which makes justification available to the human race is not applied to anyone until they believe in Christ. the believer is justified through faith. The person who believes in Christ for salvation is imputed with God's own righteousness and as a result, he is declared justified by God. Romans 3:21-30; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:1-10; Galatians chapter 3.
There is no argument with these verses . . . only with your interpretation of what this belief is. Belief is NOT a choice. It is or it isn't a fact WITHIN. It has NOTHING to do with what you CLAIM to believe to anyone else about anything external (like doctrine or dogma). It is an internal acceptance of the Holy Spirit that has been made available to ALL upon Jesus' death and rebirth as Spirit in human consciousness form. All who think belief is a choice . . . just need to try to believe something they currently do NOT. If it is a choice . . you should be able to do that. Belief is WITHIN and it JUST IS OR IS NOT. This is what is meant by The Father calls us (not our own choice) . . . that is why it is "written in our hearts" (not some books) . . . and that is why the guidance of the Holy Spirit is within.
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Time after time; repeatedly, the Bible says that salvation is through faith in Christ. The work of Christ makes salvation possible, but unless a person places his trust in Christ for salvation, he remains under eternal condemnation. The merit is not in the faith, but rather, the merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. Most people will not believe in Christ and therefore are not saved.
This is the erroneous corruption that results from thinking WE do it of our own choice. It is from WITHIN and we do NOT choose . . . God the Father calls . . . and IT JUST IS OR IS NOT. THAT is why claiming to be a follower of Jesus is "ESPECIALLY" an indicator of your salvation . . . but NOT the determining indicator. 1 Timothy 4:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
10for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.
To the contrary. Christ does not save all. Jesus Christ Himself said that the gate that leads to life is narrow and few are those who find it. Matthew 7:14.
Man is born into the world lost. Spiritually dead and separated from God at the moment of birth. The lost can only be saved through faith in Christ while alive on this earth. All who die without believing in Christ for salvation are lost forever. And it is Christ Himself who is the judge that orders them into the eternal lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15.
Universalism is unscriptural and is an attack on the Word of God and on the character of God. The following link refutes universalism quite well.
The only thing I noticed in this article that is wrong is the following statement. Near the bottom of the article it says, ''One must have faith in Christ (And that part is true, but it then goes on to say) and continue in it for the result of salvation, there is no other way.'' (The part about having to continue in faith is erroneous. While a believer certainly should continue in his faith, the fact is that once a person has initially placed his trust in Christ for salvation, he is in that moment of time eternally secure.
The article should have also made it clear that when it mentions repentance as being necessary, that repentance means a change of mind about Christ, not about sin, and not about feeling sorry for sin. Repentance with regard to salvation means to change your mind about Christ.
Other than that, it is a good article and reveals universalism for what it is.
Obviously i believe you are sadly mistaken. And that those who believe the way you do are the ones who misrepresent Gods character. Maybe you and all who believe the way you do would be willing that most should be eternally damned, and maybe you are not willing that all people be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, but the scriptures tells us that God is not willing that any should perish, and he will have all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. I understand you don't believe God is willing or able to save all people, and i realize you believe that mans will to resist God is greater than Gods will to change the heart and minds of those who would resist. I also realize you believe the power of sin to deceive and and condemn is greater than the power of the blood of Christ to renew and save, but the scriptures tell us something altogether different when you look closely.
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The lost can only be saved through faith in Christ while alive on this earth. All who die without believing in Christ for salvation are lost forever.
Yet you cannot provide one single verse which states the above. Show me were it says the power of Gods grace and mercy ceases at the point of death? Please provide one verse that says all who die without first believing in Christ are lost forever ...
Ultimately what you believe is that the power of sin and death are greater than the power of the blood of Christ. And that the works of the devil are greater than the work of Christ on the cross. If more are damned then saved, then the devil is victorious over Christ, in that he has defeated gods will to save all and even deceived more than God was able to renew.
Bellow i s a link to an article that presents over 600 scriptures that tell of the eventual restoration of all things in Christ ...
Mystic brings up a good point. Even if you argue that those who are believers will bear fruit (where's the fruit, right?), then we must concur that salvation is of the Lord, and at the appointed time, grace could easily be rammed down their throat - just like it was ours.
Believe you went and got it alone? Sorry, He won't share His glory with the flesh. (Isa 48:11)
The work of Christ on the Cross which makes justification available to the human race is not applied to anyone until they believe in Christ. the believer is justified through faith. The person who believes in Christ for salvation is imputed with God's own righteousness and as a result, he is declared justified by God. Romans 3:21-30; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:1-10; Galatians chapter 3.
Time after time; repeatedly, the Bible says that salvation is through faith in Christ. The work of Christ makes salvation possible, but unless a person places his trust in Christ for salvation, he remains under eternal condemnation. The merit is not in the faith, but rather, the merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. Most people will not believe in Christ and therefore are not saved.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Here Paul tells us we were reconciled to God by the death of Christ while we were yet enemies, and being so reconciled we will be saved all the more by his life. God did bring us into harmony with himself while we were still his enemies. All those who disbelieve now and are enemies of God are already reconciled to God through the death of Christ, and will be saved all the more by his life when all is said and done. They will believe, and will bow in subjection and confess willingly and joyously that Christ is their lord to the glory of the father. I believe that where you are stuck is in the false assumption that the power of sin and thus physical death limits and or defeats the saving grace of Christs work on the cross. Yet there is not one single scripture that says this to be true.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-01-2010 at 05:15 PM..
Of course, and I agree, but it is not because they repented - they repented because God made the knowledge of Christ real to them. He granted the repentance.
The repentance (the change of mind about Christ) is the responsibility of the person who hears the Gospel.
Romans 10:9 'that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10) for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11) For the Scripture says, ''Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.'' 12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13) For ''Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'' 14) How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. (the Gospel).
The Gospel is presented to a person. God the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer. IF upon understanding the Gospel, the hearer decides to place his trust in Christ for salvation, then God the Holy Spirit takes that faith and carries it to the point of salvation. He makes the faith of the hearer effective for salvation. The decision to place his trust in Christ is 100 percent the responsibility of the hearer of the Gospel. Then God honors that decision and applies the results of the work of Christ on the Cross to that person, resulting in eternal salvation.
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What I see is that you and the 'works' people have legitimate points but both camps miss the big picture because they don't understand God's plan for the ages.
Until you learn about the Angelic Conflict and until you learn about the fact that God's plan is dispensational in nature, don't even begin to tell me that I don't understand God's plan for the ages or that I don't see the big picture.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Here Paul tells us we were reconciled to God by the death of Christ while we were yet enemies, and being so reconciled we will be saved all the more by his life. God did bring us into harmony with himself while we were still his enemies. All those who disbelieve now and are enemies of God are already reconciled to God through the death of Christ, and will be saved all the more by his life when all is said and done.
The work of Christ on the Cross redeemed man from sin, and satisfied the righteousness of God the Father. But until a person believes in Christ for salvation, until a person receives God's offer of salvation by placing his trust in Christ, nothing that Christ did on the Cross is of benefit to that person.
Romans 3:26 'For the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 4:3 'For what does the scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.''
Over and over, the Bible says you must believe in Christ in order to be saved. And over and over, the Bible says that the unbeliever IS going to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
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They will believe, and will bow in subjection and confess willingly and joyously that Christ is their lord to the glory of the father. I believe that where you are stuck is in the false assumption that the power of sin and thus physical death limits and or defeats the saving grace of Christs work on the cross. Yet there is not one single scripture that says this to be true.
At the judgment seat of Christ which is for believers only, every knee will bend and every believer will joyously confess that Christ is Lord. But for the unbeliever at the Great White Throne Judgment (this is a different judgment from the judgment seat of Christ), when it comes time for him to bow, there is nothing joyous about it. The unbeliever will be forced to bow and acknowledge that Christ is Lord before he goes away into the lake of fire. The unbeliever's acknowledgement that Christ is indeed the Lord of all is made terrifyingly obvious to him. It is too late for him. God put man on the earth for the very pupose of using his volition to choose for or against Christ. Once a person departs from this life, his opportunity has ended and now he will suffer the consequences of his decision. Here is a link that briefly explains the issue of the unbeliever being force to admit that Christ is Lord.
John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''
Hebrews 9:27 'And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.
If a person dies without believing in Christ for salvation there is no opportunity to believe after they have died. It is to late.
Matthew 25:41 refers to unbelievers who are alive at the time of Christs return, but the principle applies to unbelievers of all ages.
Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Scripture after scripture makes it clear that those who don't believe in Christ for salvation ARE going to be eternally separated from God in the lake of fire. And the lie from Satan is that it is not so. I don't expect the majority of those who promote universalism to suddenly start embracing the truth. But the truth is presented for the purpose of exposing the heresy of universalism for the benefit of whoever has an interest in the truth.
The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”
God brings the confession out of us by speaking to that word that is in our mouth and heart.
Deep calls unto deep
I didn't 'Miss' it. I chose to start with verse 9. The heart is the KARDIA. It is the seat of the soul. The mind is the NOUS and is a part of the soul. In the Greek a head belief and a heart belief are the same thing. Obviously, when a person changes his mind about Christ he has had a change of heart. A person hears the Gospel, understands the issue and makes a decision to place his trust in Christ for salvation. He has repented-Metanoia. Or, understanding the issue, he makes a decision to reject Christ. This person has not had a change of heart, has not changed his mind about Christ, has not repented.
Obviously i believe you are sadly mistaken. And that those who believe the way you do are the ones who misrepresent Gods character. Maybe you and all who believe the way you do would be willing that most should be eternally damned, and maybe you are not willing that all people be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, but the scriptures tells us that God is not willing that any should perish, and he will have all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. I understand you don't believe God is willing or able to save all people, and i realize you believe that mans will to resist God is greater than Gods will to change the heart and minds of those who would resist. I also realize you believe the power of sin to deceive and and condemn is greater than the power of the blood of Christ to renew and save, but the scriptures tell us something altogether different when you look closely.
It is God's desire that all men be saved. But God saves only those who respond to the Gospel by placing their trust in Christ.
Acts 16:31 ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...''
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
The Bible repeatedly declares that a choice must be made to believe in Christ in order to be saved from eternal condemnation. If a person rejects the offer of salvation, then the justice of God has no choice but to judge that person and order him into the lake of fire forever. God does not compromise His holiness by saving anyone apart from the way that He provided. And that way is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
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You said ...
Yet you cannot provide one single verse which states the above. Show me were it says the power of Gods grace and mercy ceases at the point of death? Please provide one verse that says all who die without first believing in Christ are lost forever ...
John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''
Matthew 25:41 'Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (This passage is specifically addressing those unbelievers who are alive at the time that Christ returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation. This is the baptism of fire that John the baptist spoke of in Matthew 3:12. The principle applys to all unbelievers.
The same unbelievers are in view in Matthew 7:23. ''And I will declare to them, 'I NEVER knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
Matthew 7:23 is addressing all those who claimed, who professed to be believers in Christ, and did things in His name, but they never put their trust in Him for salvation. And so Christ tells them ''I NEVER KNEW YOU. DEPART FROM ME.'' And the place they depart to is the eternal lake of fire.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; BUT he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abides on him.
In the phrase 'SHALL NOT SEE LIFE', it means exactly that. Will NEVER see life. There is no 'aionios' in the phrase for anyone to falsely claim that it does not mean forever. It is clear. 'SHALL NOT SEE LIFE'. 'NOT' is an absolute negative and means NEVER.
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have eternal life.
'Whosoever' distinquishes between those who will believe and be saved, and those who WON'T believe and therefore WILL PERISH.
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Ultimately what you believe is that the power of sin and death are greater than the power of the blood of Christ. And that the works of the devil are greater than the work of Christ on the cross. If more are damned then saved, then the devil is victorious over Christ, in that he has defeated gods will to save all and even deceived more than God was able to renew.
It is God's plan to save those who accept His offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who reject His offer of salvation.
Matthew 7:13 ''Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(destruction) by it. 14) For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.
The Scriptures declare that those who die without receiving the offer of God's free gift of salvation through faith in Christ are lost forever.
The work of Christ on the Cross redeemed man from sin, and satisfied the righteousness of God the Father. But until a person believes in Christ for salvation, until a person receives God's offer of salvation by placing his trust in Christ, nothing that Christ did on the Cross is of benefit to that person.
Romans 3:26 'For the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 4:3 'For what does the scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.''
Over and over, the Bible says you must believe in Christ in order to be saved. And over and over, the Bible says that the unbeliever IS going to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Yes the work of Cross did redeem mankind from sin. But what you say about what Christ work on the cross not benefiting someone until they believe is not scriptural. Neither Romans 2:36 or Romans 4:3 disproves the fact that we were reconciled while we were yet enemies of God.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Nor do they disprove that in fact our faith is a gift of the the spirit of God, and a fruit as well ...
Faith is a gift of the spirit of God ... it is not derived from the vcarnal nature of man. One cannot believe unless the spirit of God works within them to have faith and believe. All believers are given a measure of faith as a gift of the spirit of God(Rom 12:3), and god is the one who works all things in believers ... Faith in this sense is not the common measure of aith witch is given to all believers, but is an uncommon faith in God that he will eventually work all things out according to HIS own will ...
1 Corinthians 12:4-11
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith(pistis) by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Faith is also a fruit of the spirit ...
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith(Pistis), Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
This fruit is the common measure of faith given to all believers without which one cannot believe.
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And over and over, the Bible says that the unbeliever IS going to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
The phrase "lake of fire" occurs four time in the bible ...
The only poace in scripture that could be interpreted as meaning unbelievers are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire, and Rev 20:10 ...
Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
However this is speaking specifically of the devil, the beast and the false prophet ...
Then we read in Rev 14:11 about those who worshiped the beast, and that the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever, not that they are tormented for ever and ever or that they spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Now the phrase for ever and ever is in every sense a mistranslation ... The proper translation is "unto the ages of ages" ... This represents the culmination of the ages, at which time all things will be subjected to Christ and God will be all and in all, when there will be no more death, or pain or suffering of any curse on anything. Those who are cast into the lake of fire are saved by fire(1Cr 3:15) ...
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At the judgment seat of Christ which is for believers only, every knee will bend and every believer will joyously confess that Christ is Lord. But for the unbeliever at the Great White Throne Judgment (this is a different judgment from the judgment seat of Christ), when it comes time for him to bow, there is nothing joyous about it. The unbeliever will be forced to bow and acknowledge that Christ is Lord before he goes away into the lake of fire. The unbeliever's acknowledgement that Christ is indeed the Lord of all is made terrifyingly obvious to him. It is too late for him. God put man on the earth for the very pupose of using his volition to choose for or against Christ. Once a person departs from this life, his opportunity has ended and now he will suffer the consequences of his decision. Here is a link that briefly explains the issue of the unbeliever being force to admit that Christ is Lord.
First of all, i understand the traditional fundamentalist teachings you are indoctrinated by, and i realize you believe what you are saying is true, however show me where in the bible it specifically differentiates between the great white throne judgment and the bema seat ... The theology which teaches such differences is completely based on presumption.
The article below provides many evidences of this fact and is not even written by a Christian universalist ...
John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''
Hebrews 9:27 'And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.
If a person dies without believing in Christ for salvation there is no opportunity to believe after they have died. It is to late.
Matthew 25:41 refers to unbelievers who are alive at the time of Christs return, but the principle applies to unbelievers of all ages.
Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Scripture after scripture makes it clear that those who don't believe in Christ for salvation ARE going to be eternally separated from God in the lake of fire. And the lie from Satan is that it is not so. I don't expect the majority of those who promote universalism to suddenly start embracing the truth. But the truth is presented for the purpose of exposing the heresy of universalism for the benefit of whoever has an interest in the truth.
The following link which I post again, exposes universalism for the heresy that it is.
It is clear to me and many others(the number of which is quickly growing and spreading throughout the church) that the scritpures teach it is Gods will to save all, and that in the end through the work of Christ and the baptism of fire(fiery judgments) he will in fact accomplish his will to save all people in the fullness of times. And everything else is just mistranslation and bad hermeneutics which are based thereon and on bogus presumptions and on ancient pagan religions.
Amen and selah ...
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