A fair question to you fundamentalists (believe, scripture, sinned, Jesus Christ)

[shibata]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Orthodox and fundamental christianity in it's beginning

What was that, in historic terms?

was of God

If this is an attempt to say that universalism is demonstrable from the NT, it's a little soon to say so before it's proved.

The OP title looks like an attempt to re-write history.

[Enow]

Originally Posted by pcamps

I agree God does not go around doing what the hell He likes. He is God by nature and character this is why none can compare with Him.

So how absurd does it sound to you that the gospel of orthodox christianity sound to you when it tells you that God loves you more than you could ever imagine or think and demonstrated it on the Cross , yet if you do not believe He loves you that much , He's going to burn you in eternal torment ?.

What an insult it is to God to suggest that the will of man is greater than the love of God (who is love) .

Insult? Which is a greater insult? You trying to save someone by casting in a rope to pull him out of the quicksand but this person rejects your attempt to save him and dies or Jesus paying the penalty for our sins to restore that broken relationship with God so we can live with Him forever, but the man chose to reject His love and continue to be in bondage to sin and to death?

Or how about a child molester being convicted three times for molesting and raping children: he is up for parole: you are on the parole board: he wants to move to your neighborhood out of thankfulness to you.

Do you feel lucky?

Satan after being defeated and put in the pit for 1000 years will be released once again: the devil knows His word is coming true and yet.. still he rebels. No temporary incarceration of anyone in hell is going to reprove anyone either, because knowing they will get out will lose that need for repentance. Even in the face of eternal torment, they will still sin: what does that tell you?

Eternal judgment and eternal life goes hand in hand: if they do not, what assurances are there for eternal life if they can fall away like Satan?

But Satan and his angels are reserved for the lake of fire as well as those that have recieved the mark of the beast and other unrepentive sinners that believe not in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It would not go to the glory of God in salvation in Christ Jesus if people continually reject His love and die, refusing to believe in Him and yet they find themselves in Heaven anyway.

The Bible speaks of hell and the parable of the rich man and the beggar should declare what Jesus has to say about eternal torment.

At the resurrection of Jesus Christ... when the saints of the OT followed Him up from the graves... after Jesus had descended to the lower parts of the earth to minister to those in Paradise: Abraham's bosom... where are those from hell? We see no worldwide dawn of the dead reports. We see no testimony of hell being emptied in any of the letters to the early churches: So UR has lost all claim to using God's love as something He would forego His holiness to since it was sin that seperated us from God.

It's time to wake up and ask the Lord for wisdom in understanding His words.

2 Corinthians 6: 1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) 3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

Romans 13:10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.13Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1 Peter 4:3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ephesians 5:13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

John 3: 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Enow

Insult? Which is a greater insult? You trying to save someone by casting in a rope to pull him out of the quicksand but this person rejects your attempt to save him and dies or Jesus paying the penalty for our sins to restore that broken relationship with God so we can live with Him forever, but the man chose to reject His love and continue to be in bondage to sin and to death?

Do you really believe someone sinking in quicksand is going to refuse to be pulled out , think about how not only stupid this statement sounds, but how it reveals the gospel of the fundamentalist ,"here's a rope the rest is up to you" .He seeks and saves the lost .

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by pcamps

I agree God does not go around doing what the hell He likes. He is God by nature and character this is why none can compare with Him.

So how absurd does it sound to you that the gospel of orthodox christianity sound to you when it tells you that God loves you more than you could ever imagine or think and demonstrated it on the Cross , yet if you do not believe He loves you that much , He's going to burn you in eternal torment ?.

What an insult it is to God to suggest that the will of man is greater than the love of God (who is love) .

To the contrary. The insult, the blasphemy is to deny what Jesus Himself made absolutely clear. From the lips of Jesus Himself;

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but hte wrath of God abides on Him.''

Matthew 25:41 ''Then He (referring to Himself) will also say to those on His left 'Depart from Me, accursed one, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but thr righteous into eternal life.''

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''

The blasphemy is to deny all the other scriptures in addition to those listed above that declare that apart from receiving the offer of salvation that God has extended to all, that God must allow man to remain under eternal condemnation.

The insult to God is to imply that His holiness takes a back seat to His love. God's love saves no one. Although it was God's love that motivated Him to provide the means of salvation, it was His justice that actually provided it by imputing to Christ on the Cross all the sins of fallen mankind. And as passage after passage declares, whosoever desires to receive the offer of salvation MUST make a volitional decision to believe in Christ for salvation. For example; Acts 16:31, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.''

The insult to God is to think that He can just allow into His holy presence those who do not come to Him through Christ. John 14:6.'Jesus said to him, ''I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'' And that means a desire to place your faith in Christ for salvation.

The insult to God is to imply that by not believing in Christ that man's volition is somehow greater than God's sovereignty when it is by the sovereignty of God that man has free will for the very purpose of making that volitional decision to either believe in Christ or to reject Him.

The insult to God is to take some passages such as 1 Tim. 2:4, 'who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,' and pit it against the scriptures that place the responsibility on man to use his God given volition to reach out and take the gift of salvation that God offers.

God does not impose His desire for all men to be saved, on man by forcing those who reject Christ to be saved. He can't. It goes against His reason for creating man in the first place--the angelic conflict.

The Bible states plainly that God only imputes His righteousness and His eternal life to those who believe in Christ for salvation. Without that imputed righteousness and eternal life, man cannot have an eternal relationship with God. God has a plan and a purpose in all that He does. And He follows that plan and purpose. He does not make exceptions and He does not make compromises. All who would be saved from the eternal lake of fire must by the decree of God choose to receive His offer of salvation through faith in Christ. All who reject Christ have an appointment with the Great White Throne judgment as described in Revelation 20:11-15.

God has said it, and He means what He says.

Hebrews 9:27 ''And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...''

And the judgment is this.

Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and His angels; 46) And these will go away into eternal punishment...''

And to their shame, there are those who go out of their way to provide a false sense of security to those who are lost by assuring them that ultimately, all will be saved. All will not be saved. To the contrary, most will be lost to eternal separation from God in a place of eternal misery and torment because they did not heed God's warning.

[legoman]

Why does no one ever answer the question in the OP?

Here is pcamps question:

Why do you believe He cannot get whatever He wants ? Why can He not save everyone, if that is what He wants?

Please someone answer it! Sadly it seems you all believe man is more powerful than God.

[legoman]

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

This is why men are disobedient. God has set it in place. So is God unable to make men obedient so He can have mercy on them and save all?

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by legoman

Why does no one ever answer the question in the OP?

Here is pcamps question:

Why do you believe He cannot get whatever He wants ? Why can He not save everyone, if that is what He wants?

Please someone answer it! Sadly it seems you all believe man is more powerful than God.

God cannot give man free will for the purpose of choosing to either accept or reject His offer of salvation only to go ahead and save everyone anyway. More importantly, the demands of God's righteousness must be met. God cannot simply forgive anyone unless His righteous demands have been met. God provided the means of salvation. But He requires a volitional decision on the part of man to accept the offer of salvation. God gave man free will and put the responsibility on man to make the choice. He cannot therefore simply ignore man's choice in the matter. Unless and until a person believes in Christ for salvation God cannot impute either His righteousness or His eternal life to that person and therefore they must remain under eternal condemnation. It is that simple.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Mike555

God cannot give man free will for the purpose of choosing to either accept or reject His offer of salvation only to go ahead and save everyone anyway. More importantly, the demands of God's righteousness must be met. God cannot simply forgive anyone unless His righteous demands have been met. God provided the means of salvation. But He requires a volitional decision on the part of man to accept the offer of salvation. God gave man free will and put the responsibility on man to make the choice. He cannot therefore simply ignore man's choice in the matter. Unless and until a person believes in Christ for salvation God cannot impute either His righteousness or His eternal life to that person and therefore they must remain under eternal condemnation. It is that simple.

Thanks Lego i was just thinking the same.

[Aschultz73]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Enow it says God will have , period . Its mention about praying for all men to be saved in the verse of scripture is a call for us to pray is will.

It's God seeking us not the other way round.It's God that found us not the other way round . Salvation comes to us not the other way round.

God does not seek that which is already His. God does not find what He has created. Salvation comes to man that seeks and finds, not those who do not seek or even hear and ignore. This is why Christians are told among other things

Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

Of course this is all contingent on one who has Christ and professess Him to men as the Gospel repeats over and over again to witness in His name. What is more interesting is the distincition given clearly in the next verse.

8 "For everyone who asks receives and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks shall it be opened.

This completes all of what God wants and He will get it. He wants His creations to seek Him and find Him. Not to be purged into submission, not to be wrestled into compliance, no we are told to seek and find Him.

Enow was quite correct in what he said and your response testifies the truth He presented in Christ.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Mike555

God cannot give man free will for the purpose of choosing to either accept or reject His offer of salvation only to go ahead and save everyone anyway. More importantly, the demands of God's righteousness must be met. God cannot simply forgive anyone unless His righteous demands have been met. God provided the means of salvation. But He requires a volitional decision on the part of man to accept the offer of salvation. God gave man free will and put the responsibility on man to make the choice. He cannot therefore simply ignore man's choice in the matter. Unless and until a person believes in Christ for salvation God cannot impute either His righteousness or His eternal life to that person and therefore they must remain under eternal condemnation. It is that simple.

The demands of God's righteousness must be met ?

3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us. Romans 8