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Originally Posted by Eusebius If Jesus hadn't told the words to Paul about God saving all because Jesus ransomed all then you might be right. But, alas, you have fallen down the rabbit hole and can't see straight.
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Originally Posted by twin.spin
Like these words that Jesus told Paul:
2 Thessalonians 2:12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemnedwho have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
My very dear twin.spin, the verse you quoted is to be believed.
2Th 2:11-12 And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood, (12) that all may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice."
Notice, it is not just about those who don't believe the truth but it is also about those who don't believe the truth AND delight in injustice.
Also, to be judged is not always a bad thing. God reprimanded the Jews for not judging the widows and fatherless. In other words, to judge the widows and fatherless (orphans) they were to make sure they were set right as to being taken care of in the land.
God is going to judge those people in the future who do not believe the truth. But God is behind them not believing the truth in the first place since it is He who is deceiving them so that they believe the falsehood. Get it? So if eternal torment is true, God is a horrible fiend Who makes it impossible for some to believe the truth.
But twin.spin, let us imagine the worst about God judging these people. As bad as it can get we must not use these verses to contradict all the wonderful verses about where Jesus told Paul all about how God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all (1 Tim.2:4-6) and that God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially them that believe (1 Tim.4:10) and we are to charge and teach these things (1 Tim.4:11).
"If the thief is not found then the possessor of the house will be brought near to the elohim [or "judges"] to show whether or not he has put forth his hand on the work of his associate. In every matter of transgression over a bull, over a donkey, over a flockling, over raiment or over every lost thing which one says that this is it, unto the elohim shall come the word of the two of them. Whom the elohim shall condemn, he shall repay double to his associate" (Ex.22:8,9). (James Coram, Unsearchable Riches, vol.86, p.16)
Notice that condemnation is not to "eternal torment." All mankind are condemned (that is what Romans 5:18 says). Yet that same exact "all mankind" who are condemned by what Adam did are the exact same "all mankind" that will get their lives justified by what Jesus did.
Fair is fair. If all mankind can get condemned due to what Adam did, then all mankind can get their lives justified due to what Christ did.
We must not let the verses which speak of adversative judgments contradict the truths about God making all mankind righteous and God justifying all mankind (Romans 5:18,19) as Jesus told Paul He would do.
Everything in its place, brother. The judgments will surely come. Let us also believe the salvation will surely come too. Let's believe all the bible and not pit one verse against another.
We should be careful here Eusebius because some would think they might have a license to sin.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
To be specific, it is not our fault we are sinners. We are only sinners because of Adam. And Adam is only a sinner because he had a weak heart (like we all do).
The sins we do are our own and we will be held accountable for them. But no one has the option of not being a sinner.
God will correct all this. No one has the option of not being corrected either.
Twin Spin is telling the truth! It does not matter what we think...and it is indeed a matter of accepting what the Word of God says, to include whether "UR" is scriptural, or not.
(PS: it's not)
Bud
In a certain sense you are right, it does not matter what any of us think. God is going to do what He is going to do, none of us can change that. He is the sovereign one. We can only hope that He would give us some understanding of what will happen.
We should be careful here Eusebius because some would think they might have a license to sin.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
To be specific, it is not our fault we are sinners. We are only sinners because of Adam. And Adam is only a sinner because he had a weak heart (like we all do).
The sins we do are our own and we will be held accountable for them. But no one has the option of not being a sinner.
God will correct all this. No one has the option of not being corrected either.
"Accountable" just means "to give a word" concerning what we did. It does not mean we are responsible for our sins.
No because you were made a sinner due to what Adam did.
Then I'm not actually a sinner. Only Adam is a sinner.
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Neither will it be your fault or to your glory that you will be made righteous due to what Christ did.
But I am already righteous, because I am not a sinner.
If Christ did made sinners righteous, that would not mean that sinners were not responsible for their own actions. The helplessness of one condition is not a cause of helplessness in the other.
Then I'm not actually a sinner. Only Adam is a sinner.
No, you were made a sinner due to what Adam did.
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But I am already righteous, because I am not a sinner.
In God's sight you are already righteous due to what Christ did, not because you are not a sinner.
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If Christ did make sinners righteous, that would not mean that sinners were not responsible for their own actions. The helplessness of one condition is not a cause of helplessness in the other.
How can you be responsible for being made a sinner when someone thousands of years before you were born did something to make you a sinner?
You cannot not be a sinner. You did not have a choice whether you'd be a sinner or not. That choice was made for you thousands of years ago.
You likewise cannot avoid being made righteous due to what Someone did 2000 years ago on a cross.
If Jesus meant this to be a UR...Jesus wouldn't have used the word "unless"
Well stated. The universalists' own logic condemns them.
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish - Luke 13:3
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Yep I understand what you are saying.
