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Take a statement like "Jesus is the savior of all" next to a statement "unless YOU repent YOU too will perish...."
You appear to believe you are the "YOU" in the second statement.. yet you weren't born then were you?
Does the first statement a have YOU in quotes?
But yet YOU are saying that unless someone NOW repents then they are the YOU and will perish.....
So does the one apply to now and not the other? YEP.. the quotes mean that Jesus was actually talking to people THEN not now.. it is recorded for our edification but is NOT directed toward us. WE ARE NOT THE "YOU." The people Jesus was speaking to are the YOU.... And a great many of them died in the city of Jerusalem.. some heard his words and lived.
1 Timothy is a statement of fact that CAN and DOES span time.... Jesus IS the savior of ALL...
There is a difference between applying words in quotes spoken directly to someone else (who has been dead for over 2000 years) to oneself and applying a statement of fact to oneself.
Food for thought: No one can repent unless God grants it. That is what the scripture says, do you don't believe it?
Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Luke 10:13 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Acts 5:31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.
2 Cor 7:9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intendedand so were not harmed in any way by us.
2 Cor 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
2 Tim 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
Are you getting the picture? God gives repentance, God grants repentance, God leads people to repent, God intends godly sorrow to bring repentance, God's miracles bring repentance.
No one repents until God leads them to. Part of that "leading to repentance" is God and the scriptures commanding us to repent. Not everyone does it right away though. Sometimes it takes a miracle, sometimes it takes some sorrow. But it will happen according to God's time table.
Food for thought: No one can repent unless God grants it. That is what the scripture says, do you don't believe it?
.... Not everyone does it right away though. Sometimes it takes a miracle, sometimes it takes some sorrow. But it will happen according to God's time table.
What about these folks:
2 Thessalonians 2:12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemnedwho have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Legoman, Jesus didn't say that all will be UR'ed who have not believed the truth. If you want the "all" argument, then "all will be condemned" who does not repent and believe the truth.
Last edited by twin.spin; 03-08-2010 at 07:39 PM..
2 Thessalonians 2:12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemnedwho have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Um, not sure what you are trying to say here.
(BTW this verse is simply talking about judgment. The word for "condemned" there is "krino", which means to be judged)
Are you saying you don't believe God grants, gives, and leads people to repentance?
I'm not really trying to debate here or set you up.. I just wanted to let you know that Luke 13:3 is a quote. I know it sounds silly but it is easy to overlook.
Basically, this means that Jesus said it to people standing there. So when it says "I tell you" the you cannot be someone born 2000+ years later.... and when it says "But unless you repent," it is still those who are standing there that are the "you." So when it says "you too will all perish" then the ALL is limited to the "you" or rather the people hearing him say these things who are standing there.
Take for example:
John 3:11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony."
In this case it is not I who is not accepting the testimony.. it is the people to whom he is speaking that didn't accept it. Now does this apply to me if I don't accept it now? I don't know... perhaps it does in the sense that verse 12 talks about understanding heavenly things, but I still have no reason to think I am the "you" here... I might be in a similar situation and it may apply now... but otherwise it can not.
So unless we can relate to the mixing of blood and the tower debacle.. it really can't be rightly applied to us.
There are plenty of verses ETers use that don't have this problem, but it would be hard to debate that this applies further than those he was actually speaking to at the time. That is all I was trying to say.
You might use a paraphrase to get your point across but the verse itself doesn't really say what you want it to say.
(BTW this verse is simply talking about judgment. The word for "condemned" there is "krino", which means to be judged)
Are you saying you don't believe God grants, gives, and leads people to repentance?
Lego,
It is not a matter of what I think....it's a matter of accepting all of what Jesus \ God \ God's Word says.
"all will be condemnedwho have not believed the truth"
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life
Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject thetruth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
2 Thessalonians 2:12
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness
Lego,
It is not a matter of what I think....it's a matter of accepting all of what Jesus \ God \ God's Word says.
"all will be condemnedwho have not believed the truth"
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life
Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject thetruth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
2 Thessalonians 2:12
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness
Fine, but I don't get what that had to do with the verses I posted about God granting repentance.
Are you saying God withholds repentance so some will be condemned forever?
Lego,
It is not a matter of what I think....it's a matter of accepting all of what Jesus \ God \ God's Word says.
"all will be condemnedwho have not believed the truth"
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life
Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject thetruth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
2 Thessalonians 2:12
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness
Amen Brother! God's Word clearly teaches ALL will not be saved.
If Jesus hadn't told the words to Paul about God saving all because Jesus ransomed all then you might be right. But, alas, you have fallen down the rabbit hole and can't see straight.
LoL. I think I bumped my head on the sides (and bottom) of the rabbit hole as well! Now my 'whole' life makes sense. Thank you Eusebius....
Lego,
It is not a matter of what I think....it's a matter of accepting all of what Jesus \ God \ God's Word says.
"all will be condemnedwho have not believed the truth"
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life
Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
2 Thessalonians 2:12
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness
Twin Spin is telling the truth! It does not matter what we think...and it is indeed a matter of accepting what the Word of God says, to include whether "UR" is scriptural, or not.
(PS: it's not)
Bud
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Thank you Eusebius....
