Shouldn't Cincinnati and Dayton be counted as one metro area? (Columbus: house, neighborhood)

[kjbrill]

I-75 through Dayton seems to be a mess most of my adult life, and that is now over 50 yeas. The beginning I recollect was there was no I-75 through Dayton. You got off of I-75 and wandered through a maze of detours until you got back on I-75. You got so confused and disoriented your would swear to never come back to the city of Dayton. Even after they finally completed the first stretch of I-75 through Dayton you wondered whether it really had a designer or was thrown down in whatever space. Such a convoluted mess of entrance and exit ramps, overpasses and underpasses for what reason, I have never seen.

I got to the point I would take I-71 up to Columbus and then I-70 over to Dayton to intersect I-75 north to Toledo or Detroit just to avoid downtown Dayton. While it was longer, time-wise there was littlle difference.

That is probably some of the reason I don't want to claim any part of Dayton as being combined with Cincinnati.

[abr7rmj]

The 75 zone through downtown Dayton reminds me a lot of the 75 through the Lockland split. Since the southbound lanes travel through the old canal trench, there's just no way to realistically widen the highway through there, add express lanes or do much of anything else. It's strange that there are four-five nice, new flowing lanes between Dayton and Cincinnati, but once you get south of the 275 it's a tight squeeze.

[hensleya1]

Originally Posted by abr7rmj

The 75 zone through downtown Dayton reminds me a lot of the 75 through the Lockland split. Since the southbound lanes travel through the old canal trench, there's just no way to realistically widen the highway through there, add express lanes or do much of anything else. It's strange that there are four-five nice, new flowing lanes between Dayton and Cincinnati, but once you get south of the 275 it's a tight squeeze.

Hi abr7rmj--

I wrote a bit on how to improve Cincinnati's highways and is something that may even be plausible with existing funds if the streetcars were canceled and the money used elsewhere (combined with matching State and Federal dollars) in this thread: http://www.city-data.com/forum/25310329-post3.html

3a) I-75 must be widened to four lanes in each direction between I-74 downtown and I-275 in Sharonville. Create a new ramp (Exit 4A?) and exit to Cincinnati State (which is near the I-74 interchange), which would likely dump directly onto Central Parkway. This would also improve access to UC, which would be a short trip up Ludlow Avenue.

Adding a fourth lane around Mitchell Avenue would be no problem; unless I'm mistaken they're actually doing that now. Norwood would be a bit dicier as it would require rebuilding 2 or 3 overpasses including the recently redone ramp from the lateral to 75 southbound. Lockland... the only way I can think of getting around that is building a second viaduct parallel to the current one carrying northbound traffic, and putting northbound traffic on that one instead [while reversing the current viaduct to handle southbound traffic]. That would cost about a billion dollars.

While they're at it, someone go and tell Arlington Heights where to stick their speed trap by raising the speed limit to 65 through that area.

[abr7rmj]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

Hi abr7rmj--

I wrote a bit on how to improve Cincinnati's highways and is something that may even be plausible with existing funds if the streetcars were canceled and the money used elsewhere (combined with matching State and Federal dollars) in this thread: http://www.city-data.com/forum/25310329-post3.html

Adding a fourth lane around Mitchell Avenue would be no problem; unless I'm mistaken they're actually doing that now. Norwood would be a bit dicier as it would require rebuilding 2 or 3 overpasses including the recently redone ramp from the lateral to 75 southbound. Lockland... the only way I can think of getting around that is building a second viaduct parallel to the current one carrying northbound traffic, and putting northbound traffic on that one instead [while reversing the current viaduct to handle southbound traffic]. That would cost about a billion dollars.

While they're at it, someone go and tell Arlington Heights where to stick their speed trap by raising the speed limit to 65 through that area.

In no way would I support streetcar funds going toward highways or anything other than the streetcar. The streetcar construction has already started and it will be reality. And this region desperately needs to get away from thinking that additional highway lanes are its best option. It sorely needs public rail transportation infrastructure (both within Cincinnati's core and between Cincinnati and Dayton) to compete adequately. The streetcar (and hopefully future light rail) will be a most welcome addition.

My observation was only that the downtown Dayton pinch reminds me of the 75 split due to the canal bed. Though Dayton seems to have a little more room to work with, making that current mess even more perplexing.

Welcome to the board!

[unusualfire]

^Also funds are already programmed for the widening. It may take 10+ years though. Why would Cincinnati stop the streetcar to help fund I-75 widening which is already programmed??? Much of the widening is outside the city limits as well.

You can't send money funded(federal) by one project and send it to another project . You would have to go through other processes which would waste time and more money.

[CinciFan]

Originally Posted by hensleya1

Hi abr7rmj--

I wrote a bit on how to improve Cincinnati's highways and is something that may even be plausible with existing funds if the streetcars were canceled and the money used elsewhere (combined with matching State and Federal dollars) in this thread: http://www.city-data.com/forum/25310329-post3.html

I am going to agree with the others that canceling the streetcar line in favor of highways would be a tragic mistake. Expanding highways is the absolute LAST THING we should be doing. We need rail transportation in this area.

And who are you kidding in your other post? The streetcar goes from "nowhere to nowhere"? The streetcar connects Smale riverfront park, Great American Ball Park, Paul Brown Stadium, US Bank Arena, the Banks, the Riverfront Transit Center, the Contemporary Arts Center, Fountain Square, the Cincinnati Public Library, the Aronoff Center, the Casino, SCPA, Washington Park, Music Hall, 6 Fortune 500 companies, and dozens of restaurants. Not to mention downtown and Over-the-Rhine are the fastest growing neighborhoods in the city. So in short, our cities most popular areas and venues are right on the streetcar line, so please tell me, how is this bad idea?

[TomJones123]

Cincinnati is behind the times for snoozing on rail options. Seldom is there a city this size w/o some sort of rail option.

[jmecklenborg]

Hensley, you have no idea what you are talking about.

The I-75 reconstruction is funded by ODOT, which gets its funding from the federal and state gasoline taxes. The Mitchell Ave. widening is already underway which will widen that section to 8 total lanes. The recent reconstruction of the deck of the Norwood Lateral sb entrance ramp to I-75 was also part of this project, and the new overpass in Camp Washington was funded by the stimulus as a shovel-ready aspect of the I-75 widening between the bridge and I-74.

Meanwhile, the streetcar is a city funded project. It is receiving zero funding from state or federal gasoline taxes, zero funding from Hamilton County, and zero funding from the state of Ohio.

Has the city funded expressway construction in the past? Yes -- specifically, the city split the cost of the first phases of the Millcreek Expressway between Ludlow Ave. and Paddock (a distance of about 5 miles), which was built 1955-57, before the Interstate Highway Trust Fund was established. The federal gasoline tax which was diverted to this trust fund in 1956 paid for the remaining 200-odd miles of interstate highway construction in our area. Actually, the feds paid for 90% in Ohio, with the state and city splitting the remaining 5%, although Cincinnati was able to divert proceeds from the Southern Railroad lease, meaning no funds came directly out of city coffers.

So in Cincinnati we have had zero votes on road construction since the mid-1950s, yet the streetcar alone has been subjected to two nasty ballot issues in 2009 and 2011.

[motorman]

^^ ()

[hensleya1]

Originally Posted by unusualfire

^Also funds are already programmed for the widening. It may take 10+ years though. Why would Cincinnati stop the streetcar to help fund I-75 widening which is already programmed??? Much of the widening is outside the city limits as well.

You can't send money funded(federal) by one project and send it to another project . You would have to go through other processes which would waste time and more money.

Hi unusualfire--

If widening has already been planned for I-75 this is welcome news to me.

With regards to the streetcar, the State has already pulled $52 million in funding and the Federal government looks set to do the same (U.S. House bars federal money for streetcar | Politics Extra). Any cost would have to be borne by the City alone - and the money simply isn't there to spare. There are countless other projects that need money that would get the city a LOT more bang for its' buck - such as someone mentioned a MLK/71 interchange, or a replacement for the Brent Spence Bridge.

If you were to make the streetcar viable, it would have to actually go somewhere and serve some people. As proposed, it runs from Second St. downtown to Central Parkway, then up Race Street through OTR up to Findlay Market. It doesn't stop at the Riverfront Transit Center, Paul Brown Stadium, the Banks, the Freedom Center, Fountain Square, or the Horseshoe Casino that's under construction. The other end leads to Over-the-Rhine. (Source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ap-phase-1.jpg)

Over-the-Rhine's population was estimated at 4,970 in 2007. (Source: http://www.uc.edu/cdc/urban_database...own_report.pdf). We don't know exactly how many people live in OTR anymore because... well, nobody really knows. This is from Wikipedia:

As of 2009, approximately 66% of the buildings in Over-the-Rhine are vacant.[43] Squatters, such as vagrants, prostitutes, drug addicts and dealers sometimes occupy them illegally.[34] With some buildings on the verge of collapse, investors and real-estate developers are trying to restore them before deterioration to the point of requiring demolition.[9] According to the U.S. Census Bureau, part of Over-the-Rhine has one of the highest rates of abandoned and vacant homes in the country. They classify it as the sixth hardest area in the nation to get an accurate population count.[44]

So to serve a population of less than 5,000, the City is prepared to spend over $100 million. Come again?

According to the City's own website, the cost of the streetcar will be $95 million 'plus the cost of relocating the utilities.' Since Duke and the City are currently at loggerheads over the matter (which seems to be in the neighborhood of another $18 million), pretty safe to say it'll cost a lot more. (Sources: City of Cincinnati - Streetcars, http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/...incinnati.html)

With that $100 million, the City could easily go to the State and Federal governments, lobby for matching funding, raise a billion dollars, and upgrade the road network - which would help 500,000 people living throughout the metro area - not just the 5,000 who live within a one-square mile area. Unfortunately, Mark Mallory and Roxane Qualls will hear none of it. They're determined to bull full-speed ahead with the project for reasons I cannot really fathom. I can only surmise that the current Cincinnati City Council has bought up all the properties along the proposed streetcar and that they personally have the most to lose by seeing the streetcar fail?

As for me - I just won't live inside of Cincinnati's city limits. I won't pay those taxes, and I won't subsidize those boondoggles.




If you wanted to create a viable streetcar program, you would actually expand it to include all the stops at the places I mentioned - the casino, the riverfront, etc. And then extend the line up to UC and on up towards the zoo. Because as it is, it's a streetcar line that runs from nowhere to nowhere.