Four major middle Midwest metros: Kansas City, Saint Louis, Omaha, Indianapolis (income, food)
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To the poster above, Why did you chose a (obviously) specific event to make it look like Downtown Indy looks like that all the time? I guess I could be wrong.
Yea, no joke. This is what downtown KC looks like all the time!
Still waiting to see how downtown indy is booming so much more than downtown KC and is "decades" ahead of downtown KC...
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Originally Posted by kcmo
So moving on from the fact that outside of Downtown, KC pretty much trumps Indy. Now lets just concentrate on Downtown vs Downtown. I keep saying they are comparable, you keep saying Downtown Indy is decades ahead of KC and in some different league.
This is what has happened in Downtown KCMO in the past decade (only downtown, not the plaza or westport or midtown, but downtown):
Over Six Billion has been invested with 1.3 billion in planning stages.
Downtown tax base is up 31% since 2002
Downtown Population is up 39% (in 2011) and 5000-6000 new residential units have been added in ten years.
Downtown KCMO has a full service urban grocer as well as one of the country's largest outdoor farmers markets that cities much larger than KC would love to have.
In 2012, KCMO has between 19,000-24,000 downtown residents (downtown council says about 23k in 2011) and while that number is debatable due to the physical size of what is considered downtown, what can't be argued is the growth rate and how many new units have been added (virtually all of which are in the middle of downtown and not in the outskirts of what is defined as downtown which has remained rather constant for decades.
In the past ten years, Downtown KCMO has added a world class performing arts center, a huge entertainment district and a state of the art arena.
Please tell me how Downtown KCMO is not comparable to Downtown Indy. Other than lacking in hotel rooms (actually several are in planning stages, including a 1000 room convention hotel), KC has plenty of hotel rooms when you include crown center and the plaza, it just doesn't them all around the convention center and the city seems to be doing just fine as the MLB all star game approaches.
I don't see how downtown Indy is "decades" ahead of downtown KC. Let alone the entire city. Indy grows a little faster as a region. That's about it.
Come on KC we are still waiting. Where is everybody??
Yeah, not to bandwagon against you here, especially since you seemed to be making at least well thought-out arguments, but posting a pic like this that is obviously event related, (and I've seen it before... BRG maybe?) and acting like it is normal everyday type stuff really makes you seem kind of shady and kind of discredits your other posts...
You attack Indy in a way that makes it so you can say that you aren't actually attacking it. It's hard to explain, but it's basically like people that say things like, "I'm not a racist, but Black people are lazy." It's significantly more annoying that the people that just say Indianapolis sucks.
Downtown Indy is decades ahead of downtown KC. Indy has thousands of more hotel rooms, residents, and apartment/condo units, as well as significantly more restaurants and retail. I'm not sure how to measure exactly how many years ahead that is, but since downtown Indy is still booming it will continue to offer more.
And please, enough pictures. I have now seen enough pictures of Kansas City to last me a life time and really didn't need over 10 pictures of city buses.
I happen to like that he shows pics to try and support his arguments, you could as well ya know... More pics in this thread!!! Of all four cities btw!!!
I like when people at least try to use facts (despite how bendable), pics, maps, etc., at least something to support arguments rather than just opinions (which are often coming from people who defend their hometown) that don't hold too much weight either way.
So moving on from the fact that outside of Downtown, KC pretty much trumps Indy. Now lets just concentrate on Downtown vs Downtown. I keep saying they are comparable, you keep saying Downtown Indy is decades ahead of KC and in some different league.
This is what has happened in Downtown KCMO in the past decade (only downtown, not the plaza or westport or midtown, but downtown):
Over Six Billion has been invested with 1.3 billion in planning stages.
Downtown tax base is up 31% since 2002
Downtown Population is up 39% (in 2011) and 5000-6000 new residential units have been added in ten years.
Downtown KCMO has a full service urban grocer as well as one of the country's largest outdoor farmers markets that cities much larger than KC would love to have.
In 2012, KCMO has between 19,000-24,000 downtown residents (downtown council says about 23k in 2011) and while that number is debatable due to the physical size of what is considered downtown, what can't be argued is the growth rate and how many new units have been added (virtually all of which are in the middle of downtown and not in the outskirts of what is defined as downtown which has remained rather constant for decades.
In the past ten years, Downtown KCMO has added a world class performing arts center, a huge entertainment district and a state of the art arena.
Please tell me how Downtown KCMO is not comparable to Downtown Indy. Other than lacking in hotel rooms (actually several are in planning stages, including a 1000 room convention hotel), KC has plenty of hotel rooms when you include crown center and the plaza, it just doesn't them all around the convention center and the city seems to be doing just fine as the MLB all star game approaches.
I don't see how downtown Indy is "decades" ahead of downtown KC. Let alone the entire city. Indy grows a little faster as a region. That's about it.
Well, Downtown council has downtown KC at just under 19k. DT Indpls is sitting at 24-25k and will top 30 by beginning of next year as the next wave of housing is completed. Every downtown in the nation is growing at this point since it's the new "it" factor for urban living. What is the likelihood Indianapolis hits it's 1980 census of 40k residents downtown before KC hits 30k? It would all depend on whether or not KC can keep up its building pace. Only time will tell or will public/private partnerships eventually get to much for the citizens portion to carry on their backs. Indianapolis has been doing this for 20 years non-stop and who knows when it will reach its breaking point. State sales tax has gone up, restaurant tax, all gets factored into that equation like everywhere else on top of adding a new terminal and another taxpayer funded hospital.
Quote:
In the past ten years, Downtown KCMO has added a world class performing arts center, a huge entertainment district and a state of the art arena.
Indianapolis already had a huge entertainment district (Wholesale) and has since beefed up Mass Ave. The Canal is touristy but not what many would consider entertainment unless you count the lawn at WRSP or the Zoo. Whether or not P & L matches the wholesale district is a matter of opinion but it's definitely not as established. Kaufman looks nice but it lacks the history (since it is new). Never designate anything new as world class, it's just new and shiny. How it stands the test of time and how it holds on to its character over said time I feel is more of when you can decide if something is truly world class. I can build a sweet looking house and claim it's world class. Doesn't make it so just because it's new. Other than that, two state of the art sporting venues in DT Indpls along with a revamped convention center coupled with historic theatres such as Hilbert and the Murat and even to an extent Walker. A lot of people call the Cultural Trail world class. It's a new trail. 20 years if it somehow transformed the way people moved about downtown and between the districts, then I would say it's world class. Until then it's a very nice and thought out trail that very few cities if any has done. The Grand Hall @ Union Station, I would say is world class. Nations 1st Union Station, held on to its character quite nicely (just being honest, they just do not build things today like they use to with the attention to the slightest detail and constantly cutting corners somewhere) and is quite lovely. That same token, Hinkle Fieldhouse is wc while Bankers Life isn't even the BL is modeled after Hinkle.
The newest hotel going up (The Alexander) is Dolce's new prototype urban hotel. Dolce isn't Lees Inn by any stretch. Indianapolis and KC has about the same # of hotel rooms metro wide. It's just where they are located.
Quote:
Downtown KCMO has a full service urban grocer as well as one of the country's largest outdoor farmers markets that cities much larger than KC would love to have.
There are two full line grocers in dt Indpls. Kroger @ 16th and Central and Marsh @ Lockerbie Sq with a second Marsh getting ready to be built in the NW Quad totaling 3 stores for downtown. Also includes about 10 fitness places, hardware stores, several dry cleaners, drug stores, automotive shops, pet care, a winery and two breweries. Also included is the Indianapolis City Market. Might not be as large, but has gone on for just as long (last quarter of the 1800's) and does both summer and winter.
There has never been that much housing within the Mile Square. Sure there's some on north Meridian and condos at the Conrad and the new developments along East Washington and New York but traditional housing and the Mile Square do not go hand in hand. NE Quad is building out and the next targeted area according to the Master Plan is South, finishing and refurbing in Fletcher Place heading West towards West street. 16 Tech in the NW Quad refurbishes and repurposes Victory Field (which has never been done as far as MLB is aware of) and of course the corporate aspect of the area that will be there as well being huge in Life Sciences.
Quote:
Over Six Billion has been invested with 1.3 billion in planning stages.
Every city touts billions and billions. All of them are over inflated for marketing purposes, Indianapolis included but I will say IU Health has more than that going on downtown by itself let alone adding any other development going on. Overall, the most spend happy over the past few decades has probably been Indianapolis and Denver and often the two most studied success stories in dt revitalization. Needless to say, Indianapolis has definitely invested over 6 billion over the years.
^ nice post, but you posted why Indy is comparable to KC, not why it's decades ahead of it.
Just to respond to your post. First off, you can find sources that put KCMO's downtown pop at 19-24k and that was back in 2010. If you want to use 19k, that's fine and not that it matters, but I think most will put it in the low 20's now, so again, comparable to Indy either way.
And you didn't just go and act like KC can't compare to indy when it comes to historic architecture did you? In that post you quoted, I just mentioned the NEW things that were built in KC recently and rather than understand that, you go and act like Downtown doesn't have historic structures to compliment them, most of which have been renovated recently. You have to be kidding me.
KCMO has some amazing art deco skyscrapers, some of which are now condo buildings. KC has several historic downtown theaters, one of the most amazing union stations in the country, a 1930's era arena with all kinds of history, a huge 1920's Library building and much more. The new Kauffman Center has been in all kids of architectural magazines and has been called one of the worlds finest modern performing arts venues by many already. You don't have to accept that, but the place is amazing and it should be since it cost 420 million to build.
While I will admit that Indy is a better convention city than KC (mainly due to hotels within walking distance), KC has put several hundred million into its convention center and it's now one of the nicer ones I have seen plus it has one of the largest ballrooms in the country.
KC is trying to get back into the convention business and needs hotels and transit to do it. Who knows if it will ever return to a 2nd tier convention city, but I think they are on their way to making a run at it.
More pics for you since I think many Indy folk need them !!!
Convention Center
Ballroom
Ballroom attached to the historic Municipal Arena and Theater.
Entire convention center crosses the interstate
Art deco! This pic below is now one of the tallest residential buildings in the midwest.
Last edited by JMT; 07-30-2012 at 05:58 AM..
Reason: Max of 6 images per post
Ok, I'm going to have to start attacking KC more now after two in a row with Indy posters, otherwise I'm going to get labeled an "Indy hater"...; but, I just can't let this one go...
Quote:
Originally Posted by msamhunter
Well, Downtown council has downtown KC at just under 19k. DT Indpls is sitting at 24-25k and will top 30 by beginning of next year as the next wave of housing is completed. Every downtown in the nation is growing at this point since it's the new "it" factor for urban living. What is the likelihood Indianapolis hits it's 1980 census of 40k residents downtown before KC hits 30k? It would all depend on whether or not KC can keep up its building pace. Only time will tell or will public/private partnerships eventually get to much for the citizens portion to carry on their backs. Indianapolis has been doing this for 20 years non-stop and who knows when it will reach its breaking point.State sales tax has gone up, restaurant tax, all gets factored into that equation like everywhere else on top of adding a new terminal and another taxpayer funded hospital.
Hmmm.... My overall thought on this is mixed... On the one hand, despite visiting Indy over a dozen times I don't know all the details of current city projects/financing/economics/etc. This could be my ignorance of this very specific example showing, but way more likely you are taking a very volatile and unpredictable science and using it incorrectly as fact... Your ability to see into the future with your crystal ball here, and totally rule out an unlimited list of mitigating variables (yeah...only things with KC could affect this, nothing with Indy...) is a probable mix of current trends and pride that is almost comical. 24k now??? Hit 30k in 7 months, o def!!! Seriously, this is just a question that concerns one of many, many variables, but are all of these units being built reserved? Hmmm... and 20 years, that's a long time for you huh? I don't want to get into taxes too much as I really am not a fan of the field, but I am curious, what are you trying to say here?
Indianapolis already had a huge entertainment district (Wholesale) and has since beefed up Mass Ave. The Canal is touristy but not what many would consider entertainment unless you count the lawn at WRSP or the Zoo. Whether or not P & L matches the wholesale district is a matter of opinion but it's definitely not as established. Kaufman looks nice but it lacks the history (since it is new). Never designate anything new as world class, it's just new and shiny. How it stands the test of time and how it holds on to its character over said time I feel is more of when you can decide if something is truly world class. I can build a sweet looking house and claim it's world class. Doesn't make it so just because it's new. Other than that, two state of the art sporting venues in DT Indpls along with a revamped convention center coupled with historic theatres such as Hilbert and the Murat and even to an extent Walker. A lot of people call the Cultural Trail world class. It's a new trail. 20 years if it somehow transformed the way people moved about downtown and between the districts, then I would say it's world class. Until then it's a very nice and thought out trail that very few cities if any has done. The Grand Hall @ Union Station, I would say is world class. Nations 1st Union Station, held on to its character quite nicely (just being honest, they just do not build things today like they use to with the attention to the slightest detail and constantly cutting corners somewhere) and is quite lovely. That same token, Hinkle Fieldhouse is wc while Bankers Life isn't even the BL is modeled after Hinkle.
Minus the house comment I can kinda agree somewhat; which is why I wonder why the heck you would bring something like this up to defend Indy. Age can be on St. Louis's side to a small extent, in US terms since it is older than the US, but really??? You want to bring age into a conversation about "world class" (don't use this phrase, I know you weren't first here but still....) in the US??? This is NOT our country's strong suit! Indy in particular, what???
The newest hotel going up (The Alexander) is Dolce's new prototype urban hotel. Dolce isn't Lees Inn by any stretch. Indianapolis and KC has about the same # of hotel rooms metro wide. It's just where they are located.
There are two full line grocers in dt Indpls. Kroger @ 16th and Central and Marsh @ Lockerbie Sq with a second Marsh getting ready to be built in the NW Quad totaling 3 stores for downtown. Also includes about 10 fitness places, hardware stores, several dry cleaners, drug stores, automotive shops, pet care, a winery and two breweries. Also included is the Indianapolis City Market. Might not be as large, but has gone on for just as long (last quarter of the 1800's) and does both summer and winter.
This makes me said for US cities that I love so much... There are 5-6 grocery stores within a few minutes walk of my apartment here in Paris... You guys are argueing over 1-2 in an entire downtown.... damn you Ford! (Note DT grocery store access is an issue in STL as well)
There has never been that much housing within the Mile Square. Sure there's some on north Meridian and condos at the Conrad and the new developments along East Washington and New York but traditional housing and the Mile Square do not go hand in hand. NE Quad is building out and the next targeted area according to the Master Plan is South, finishing and refurbing in Fletcher Place heading West towards West street. 16 Tech in the NW Quad refurbishes and repurposes Victory Field (which has never been done as far as MLB is aware of) and of course the corporate aspect of the area that will be there as well being huge in Life Sciences.
Every city touts billions and billions. All of them are over inflated for marketing purposes, Indianapolis included but I will say IU Health has more than that going on downtown by itself let alone adding any other development going on. Overall, the most spend happy over the past few decades has probably been Indianapolis and Denver and often the two most studied success stories in dt revitalization. Needless to say, Indianapolis has definitely invested over 6 billion over the years.
1st bold (of this last section, please see above for others): First part not really, second part def.
2nd bold: Spend happy doesn't always go well... finance in the news, global economy, notice any similarities in top stories??? KC even backing the PL district could be used as a potential example, we'll see...
Finally, and again... great city does not simply mean great downtown... some cities are so great having so many things so close together would actually be a really, really big negative... Imagine that! I also like living in amazing urban neighborhoods that don't just consists of tourists wandering the streets from nearby hotels, carzy huh...
Sorry if this is too crass, been drinking...
Last edited by Caesarstl; 05-31-2012 at 05:55 PM..
I've lived near KCMO and Indy, so this argument is kind of funny because I see people using the strong points of each city to try and top one another. KCMO's amenities are more spread out giving it a larger feel (that coupled with a few more high-rises); however, the drawback is that its vibrancy is more pocketed leaving the areas in-between less active. Indy draws its amenities in close (though a few exist outside--Fountain Square, Broadripple & Lockerbie); as a result, it makes for a more active core. That's it. CD seems a little anti-Indy for some reason. It's a good city and deserves more votes than it got.
I've lived near KCMO and Indy, so this argument is kind of funny because I see people using the strong points of each city to try and top one another. KCMO's amenities are more spread out giving it a larger feel (that coupled with a few more high-rises); however, the drawback is that its vibrancy is more pocketed leaving the areas in-between less active. Indy draws its amenities in close (though a few exist outside--Fountain Square, Broadripple & Lockerbie); as a result, it makes for a more active core. That's it. CD seems a little anti-Indy for some reason. It's a good city and deserves more votes than it got.
I def agree with everything until the bolded part, although still with some caveats, but the section I bolded I have issues with... The thread is about the best metro of the four, not which are good/bad, and I don't personally think badly about any of them. But... for the best, the answer is very clear to me, and if people disagree that's fine (as there are arguments I could certainly see) but I wish there was some debate about it (these arguments actually taking shape); instead, we are debating 2nd and 3rd place (KC/Indy) and votes keep climbing for these two as a mini internal competition seems to have started. Obviously this would've made a good separate "VS." thread. For this thread, as another poster mentioned these are the closest two metro areas, and I'd agree, but in my opinion this seems to be detracting from the original thread with the focus on arguing about the best of the 4 choices. Am I the only one that feels this way???
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