Atlanta vs. Cleveland (in honor of the ECF) (crime, people, school)
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"Atlanta really doesn't have a traditional downtown"? That's extremely inaccurate and MARTA certainly has higher ridership than Cleveland's transit system. Looking at coverage for each city compared to their populations would be interesting though.
Atlanta's actual downtown is small an unimpressive imho -- Cleveland's certainly trumps it-- and Cleveland's, downtown, with the housing growth, new supermarkets, the rebirth/redevelopment of the Flats and growth of adjacent Ohio City, is really on roll. Downtown Atlanta is mainly the Underground, the CNN Center and a bunch of large, impressive convention hotels and sports stadiums. Nightlife is pretty much nonexistent... In actuality Atlanta's CBD stretches north along Peachtree street from Five Points to Buckhead 7-8 miles north. There are some interesting spots along the way, like Midtown with highrises, theaters and restaurants -- Midtown is one of my favorite urban-ized spots in metro Atlanta. Arts Center is pretty cool, too. But Buckhead is like a huge suburbanized area with malls, office campuses, strip shopping ... yuck.
As for MARTA ... of course MARTA is larger and carries a lot more people than Cleveland's RTA Rapid. But metro Atlanta is much, much more spread out than Cleveland. Metro Atlanta has 5.5M while Metro Cleveland is about 2.0 or 2.6M (depending on whether Summit Co (Akron) is included, which I think it should be); Cleveland proper's population density is to Atlanta's is 5,000/sq. mi. vs. 3,400/sq. mi. Area, Cleveland 77 sq. mi., Atlanta, 134.
Atlanta's traffic, esp on it's freeways, and esp in I-85, rank among the worst in the country. Cleveland's traffic is light, comparatively; even in rush hour, while there are certain choke points during rush hour, it still moves. Cleveland's Rapid is old and serves a smaller area of declining population (although the decline has slowed considerably in the last 5 years and could actually reverse by 2020), while Atlanta's growth continues to be explosive. Like I said, MARTA is a very good system, but needs to be expanded considerably to handle the crush of traffic in metro Atlanta where, in many cases, MARTA isn't even reachable... Commuter rail development should be at the top of the list to supplement Rapid transit there... I just think that pound-for-pound, Cleveland's Rapid and Altanta's MARTA are comparable when you compare the sizes and relative growth/non-growth for their respective metropolitan areas, that's all... This is particularly true if you add Cleveland's Health Line BRT, which has become a model for the nation.
Atlanta's actual downtown is small an unimpressive imho -- Cleveland's certainly trumps it-- and Cleveland's, downtown, with the housing growth, new supermarkets, the rebirth/redevelopment of the Flats and growth of adjacent Ohio City, is really on roll. Downtown Atlanta is mainly the Underground, the CNN Center and a bunch of large, impressive convention hotels and sports stadiums. Nightlife is pretty much nonexistent... In actuality Atlanta's CBD stretches north along Peachtree street from Five Points to Buckhead 7-8 miles north. There are some interesting spots along the way, like Midtown with highrises, theaters and restaurants -- Midtown is one of my favorite urban-ized spots in metro Atlanta. Arts Center is pretty cool, too. But Buckhead is like a huge suburbanized area with malls, office campuses, strip shopping ... yuck.
As for MARTA ... of course MARTA is larger and carries a lot more people than Cleveland's RTA Rapid. But metro Atlanta is much, much more spread out than Cleveland. Metro Atlanta has 5.5M while Metro Cleveland is about 2.0 or 2.6M (depending on whether Summit Co (Akron) is included, which I think it should be); Cleveland proper's population density is to Atlanta's is 5,000/sq. mi. vs. 3,400/sq. mi. Area, Cleveland 77 sq. mi., Atlanta, 134.
Atlanta's traffic, esp on it's freeways, and esp in I-85, rank among the worst in the country. Cleveland's traffic is light, comparatively; even in rush hour, while there are certain choke points during rush hour, it still moves. Cleveland's Rapid is old and serves a smaller area of declining population (although the decline has slowed considerably in the last 5 years and could actually reverse by 2020), while Atlanta's growth continues to be explosive. Like I said, MARTA is a very good system, but needs to be expanded considerably to handle the crush of traffic in metro Atlanta where, in many cases, MARTA isn't even reachable... Commuter rail development should be at the top of the list to supplement Rapid transit there... I just think that pound-for-pound, Cleveland's Rapid and Altanta's MARTA are comparable when you compare the sizes and relative growth/non-growth for their respective metropolitan areas, that's all... This is particularly true if you add Cleveland's Health Line BRT, which has become a model for the nation.
Is this an attempt at levity?? If it is, it is a bad attempt.
Midtown and Decatur impressed me. Marietta looks like a very cool place that has New England Charm. However, if I was to say three things that would DRAW me to Atlanta as opposed to Cleveland, it would be excellent universities (Emory/Georgia Tech within immediate area), excellent economy/opportunity to be hired (supposedly?) and access to terrain within the city plus being about a 2 hour drive from GSMNP.
I would second the thoughts that, while Downtown ATL and Buckhead may appeal to some people, they largely lack the appeal for me. I'm sure I would go to them if I lived there, but I much prefer Cleveland's Downtown to either of those. Even the museums along Centennial Olympic Park (World of Coca Cola, CNN Center) do seem like more of the type of place you would visit once instead of continuing to visit.
Atlanta's actual downtown is small an unimpressive imho -- Cleveland's certainly trumps it-- and Cleveland's, downtown, with the housing growth, new supermarkets, the rebirth/redevelopment of the Flats and growth of adjacent Ohio City, is really on roll. Downtown Atlanta is mainly the Underground, the CNN Center and a bunch of large, impressive convention hotels and sports stadiums. Nightlife is pretty much nonexistent... In actuality Atlanta's CBD stretches north along Peachtree street from Five Points to Buckhead 7-8 miles north. There are some interesting spots along the way, like Midtown with highrises, theaters and restaurants -- Midtown is one of my favorite urban-ized spots in metro Atlanta. Arts Center is pretty cool, too. But Buckhead is like a huge suburbanized area with malls, office campuses, strip shopping ... yuck.
As for MARTA ... of course MARTA is larger and carries a lot more people than Cleveland's RTA Rapid. But metro Atlanta is much, much more spread out than Cleveland. Metro Atlanta has 5.5M while Metro Cleveland is about 2.0 or 2.6M (depending on whether Summit Co (Akron) is included, which I think it should be); Cleveland proper's population density is to Atlanta's is 5,000/sq. mi. vs. 3,400/sq. mi. Area, Cleveland 77 sq. mi., Atlanta, 134.
Atlanta's traffic, esp on it's freeways, and esp in I-85, rank among the worst in the country. Cleveland's traffic is light, comparatively; even in rush hour, while there are certain choke points during rush hour, it still moves. Cleveland's Rapid is old and serves a smaller area of declining population (although the decline has slowed considerably in the last 5 years and could actually reverse by 2020), while Atlanta's growth continues to be explosive. Like I said, MARTA is a very good system, but needs to be expanded considerably to handle the crush of traffic in metro Atlanta where, in many cases, MARTA isn't even reachable... Commuter rail development should be at the top of the list to supplement Rapid transit there... I just think that pound-for-pound, Cleveland's Rapid and Altanta's MARTA are comparable when you compare the sizes and relative growth/non-growth for their respective metropolitan areas, that's all... This is particularly true if you add Cleveland's Health Line BRT, which has become a model for the nation.
D.C has a much better subway system but ist traffic is the worse ANYWHERE I have seen in the u.S.I expect that expanding MARTA wont make a subtatial dent but it will give more people options.
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Buckhead has come a long way fast.It sounds like you have not been in a while.The building boom in Buckhead is greater than all other areas of Atlanta combined.Much of it has been redeveloped and made more cohesive.
Last edited by JMT; 06-02-2015 at 10:34 AM..
Reason: Violation of rules for posting images
Atlanta's actual downtown is small an unimpressive imho -- Cleveland's certainly trumps it-- and Cleveland's, downtown, with the housing growth, new supermarkets, the rebirth/redevelopment of the Flats and growth of adjacent Ohio City, is really on roll. Downtown Atlanta is mainly the Underground, the CNN Center and a bunch of large, impressive convention hotels and sports stadiums. Nightlife is pretty much nonexistent... In actuality Atlanta's CBD stretches north along Peachtree street from Five Points to Buckhead 7-8 miles north. There are some interesting spots along the way, like Midtown with highrises, theaters and restaurants -- Midtown is one of my favorite urban-ized spots in metro Atlanta. Arts Center is pretty cool, too. But Buckhead is like a huge suburbanized area with malls, office campuses, strip shopping ... yuck.
Atlanta's actual downtown is underutilized for sure and Cleveland's does trump it, but Atlanta does have a traditional, urban downtown with the heart of it being the Fairlie-Poplar Historic District; other important areas include South Downtown/Government District, Pemberton Place (COP/Georgia Aquarium area), and GWCC Campus, Georgia State University, and the Auburn Avenue corridor. The core of Atlanta consists of downtown proper and Midtown; Buckhead is a little too far out to be considered part of the core CBD in my opinion. The growth and devlopment of Midtown and Buckhead occurred at the expense of downtown (which is why the nightlife is in Midtown), but downtown still has the best bones out of all of the major office districts/urban areas.
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As for MARTA ... of course MARTA is larger and carries a lot more people than Cleveland's RTA Rapid. But metro Atlanta is much, much more spread out than Cleveland. Metro Atlanta has 5.5M while Metro Cleveland is about 2.0 or 2.6M (depending on whether Summit Co (Akron) is included, which I think it should be); Cleveland proper's population density is to Atlanta's is 5,000/sq. mi. vs. 3,400/sq. mi. Area, Cleveland 77 sq. mi., Atlanta, 134.
Comparing transit systems can be somewhat tricky because it depends on their coverage within their metro areas. MARTA only serves Atlanta, and the counties of Fulton, DeKalb, and most recently, Clayton; some of the other counties have their own transit systems so it wouldn't exactly be an apples to apples comparison unless comparing coverage of the main transit agencies within the jurisdictions they actually serve.
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Atlanta's traffic, esp on it's freeways, and esp in I-85, rank among the worst in the country. Cleveland's traffic is light, comparatively; even in rush hour, while there are certain choke points during rush hour, it still moves. Cleveland's Rapid is old and serves a smaller area of declining population (although the decline has slowed considerably in the last 5 years and could actually reverse by 2020), while Atlanta's growth continues to be explosive. Like I said, MARTA is a very good system, but needs to be expanded considerably to handle the crush of traffic in metro Atlanta where, in many cases, MARTA isn't even reachable... Commuter rail development should be at the top of the list to supplement Rapid transit there... I just think that pound-for-pound, Cleveland's Rapid and Altanta's MARTA are comparable when you compare the sizes and relative growth/non-growth for their respective metropolitan areas, that's all... This is particularly true if you add Cleveland's Health Line BRT, which has become a model for the nation.
Well Atlanta is a top 10 metro and among the fastest-growing in the country as you noted, but even with an inadequate road network and HRT system for the size of the metro, it only ranked 18th last year in the country for cities with the worst traffic. Traffic Scorecard - INRIX I think that's partially a result of Atlanta cooling down a bit growth-wise for the past few years, but with job growth finally showing signs of strength again, it just might creep up higher in the rankings in the next few years. Thankfully, more and more companies in the area see the benefit of locating near transit and several have announced plans to do so in recent years.
Hmm.... Well Atlanta's downtown may be Fairlie Poplar... But Cleveland's downtown is Super Popular!
LOL, I couldn't resist. I'll be here all day.
In all seriousness, I think to some degree a lot of this subjective.
Cleveland's Downtown likely has more of this stuff (Pics Above), but to be fair, I think some of those building designs are impossible to replicate from those architectural periods, so there's only so much Atlanta can do there, which makes it sort of an unfair criteria.
Last edited by theurbanfiles; 06-02-2015 at 10:38 AM..
Atlanta's actual downtown is underutilized for sure and Cleveland's does trump it, but Atlanta does have a traditional, urban downtown with the heart of it being the Fairlie-Poplar Historic District; other important areas include South Downtown/Government District, Pemberton Place (COP/Georgia Aquarium area), and GWCC Campus, Georgia State University, and the Auburn Avenue corridor. The core of Atlanta consists of downtown proper and Midtown; Buckhead is a little too far out to be considered part of the core CBD in my opinion. The growth and devlopment of Midtown and Buckhead occurred at the expense of downtown (which is why the nightlife is in Midtown), but downtown still has the best bones out of all of the major office districts/urban areas.
Comparing transit systems can be somewhat tricky because it depends on their coverage within their metro areas. MARTA only serves Atlanta, and the counties of Fulton, DeKalb, and most recently, Clayton; some of the other counties have their own transit systems so it wouldn't exactly be an apples to apples comparison unless comparing coverage of the main transit agencies within the jurisdictions they actually serve.
Well Atlanta is a top 10 metro and among the fastest-growing in the country as you noted, but even with an inadequate road network and HRT system for the size of the metro, it only ranked 18th last year in the country for cities with the worst traffic. Traffic Scorecard - INRIX I think that's partially a result of Atlanta cooling down a bit growth-wise for the past few years, but with job growth finally showing signs of strength again, it just might creep up higher in the rankings in the next few years. Thankfully, more and more companies in the area see the benefit of locating near transit and several have announced plans to do so in recent years.
I don't want to come off as trashing Atlanta, because I really like it there. It does have significant history and is, surprisingly (to me, anyway), industrial in nature. At times it feels a lot like Cleveland but, obviously, overall, it doesn't have Cleveland's decay. I love the fact that Atlanta did go out and build a significant heavy rail rapid transit system, in MARTA, and has developed several TOD districts like Midtown, Lindberg, Arts District and downtown Decatur. That's growing the right way imho. I just hope they can build on MARTA and develop commuter rail and/or serious BRT to cope with the traffic. It's a fun town, lots to do and a lot of first rate convention hotels.
As someone who has recently lived in D.C. and visited Atlanta in recent years, I can tell you that Atlanta's radial freeway traffic is worse. For one thing, D.C. (wisely) didn't build radial freeways -- the only one, really, is I-395 south over the 14th Street Bridge. The D.C. Beltway is a nightmare, but it has nothing on I-85. Also the D.C. Metro is more than double the size of MARTA and is supplemented by 6 Maryland and VA commuter rail lines + Amtrak's NEC route to the north... Thus D.C. commuters have far more options than in Metro Atlanta...
Cleveland frankly is not in that league either in size or in terms of growth because, as I noted earlier, metro Cleveland, both the City and the area, are declining in population and have been doing so for decades... But Clevelander's are proud of the fact that the city is fighting back, is slowing these population declines and is growing economically in many ways despite the still lingering problems.
I don't want to come off as trashing Atlanta, because I really like it there. It does have significant history and is, surprisingly (to me, anyway), industrial in nature. At times it feels a lot like Cleveland but, obviously, overall, it doesn't have Cleveland's decay. I love the fact that Atlanta did go out and build a significant heavy rail rapid transit system, in MARTA, and has developed several TOD districts like Midtown, Lindberg, Arts District and downtown Decatur. That's growing the right way imho. I just hope they can build on MARTA and develop commuter rail and/or serious BRT to cope with the traffic. It's a fun town, lots to do and a lot of first rate convention hotels.
As someone who has recently lived in D.C. and visited Atlanta in recent years, I can tell you that Atlanta's radial freeway traffic is worse. For one thing, D.C. (wisely) didn't build radial freeways -- the only one, really, is I-395 south over the 14th Street Bridge. The D.C. Beltway is a nightmare, but it has nothing on I-85. Also the D.C. Metro is more than double the size of MARTA and is supplemented by 6 Maryland and VA commuter rail lines + Amtrak's NEC route to the north... Thus D.C. commuters have far more options than in Metro Atlanta...
Cleveland frankly is not in that league either in size or in terms of growth because, as I noted earlier, metro Cleveland, both the City and the area, are declining in population and have been doing so for decades... But Clevelander's are proud of the fact that the city is fighting back, is slowing these population declines and is growing economically in many ways despite the still lingering problems.
I too lived near D.C and visit family often.D.C.is BAD.Especially coming or leaving from Arlington.Its all relative to where you live and work I think in each metro.
I live on the South side so traffic is not really that bad.
The North is a whole another story.
By almost all the sources i can find ,DC is the usually at the to and Atlanta is not even in the top 10 most of the time and when it is its like number 8.
Hmm.... Well Atlanta's downtown may be Fairlie Poplar... But Cleveland's downtown is Super Popular!
LOL, I couldn't resist. I'll be here all day.
In all seriousness, I think to some degree a lot of this subjective.
Cleveland's Downtown likely has more of this stuff (Pics Above), but to be fair, I think some of those building designs are impossible to replicate from those architectural periods, so there's only so much Atlanta can do there, which makes it sort of an unfair criteria.
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