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Scott Bottles makes a similar observation in his work Los Angeles and the Automobile.
And that explains that poster's observation about LA's lack of a "contiguous, three-dimensional urban environment" outside of its CBD.
people really like to harp that LA does not look like an eastcoast city. Yet, I will leave my car at home when I go to work. This is why I like real life. Next your gonna tell me why LA's weather makes it too cold to swim so that is why NY's beaches are better lol. NY's love that one LMAO.
I'm not sure the premise is true. Dupont Circle, to me, seems busier than Santa Monica, except possibly RIGHT on the few blocks of the 3rd Street Promenade, and even there, I don't think it's generally busier than Connecticut Ave, except maybe on weekends around dinnertime.
I don't doubt the premise. Note he qualified his statement by saying "on the weekends." That would make sense because Dupont Circle is a standard (albeit an urban) residential neighborhood whereas Santa Monica, the French Quarter, South Beach, etc. are tourist destinations. You're not really going to see that many people around Dupont Circle aimlessly walking around. M Street in DC more or less serves that function.
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Originally Posted by NOLA101
Connecticut Ave. is a very busy seven-day corridor and the Metro station delivers pretty intense crowds. 3rd Street in Santa Monica is pretty quiet during the day.
It's not very busy, or at least not busy compared to the type of pedestrian volume he is talking about.
Both South Beach and Santa Monica have highly concentrated areas of "hyper" pedestrian activity. There is no area of Dupont Circle, or the Village for that matter, that I would characterize as having "hyper" pedestrian activity since those areas are first and foremost residential areas. While South Beach has residential areas, I would bet that 90% of the pedestrians you see walking there aren't even from Florida. The majority of the people you see walking in Dupont Circle are probably locals just carrying on with mundane life activities.
A neighborhood like Dupont is not at its busiest on a leisurely Saturday afternoon in late May. It will be vibrant, yes, but the most pedestrian activity you are going to see will be around rush hour. That's the only time mostly everyone has a reason to be outside and walking at approximately the same time.
Suburbanites head to Dupont Circle, Georgetown, Adams Morgan/U St on the weekends.
There isnt alot of other places for them to go for fun, as I've pointed out before.
Same goes for tourists.
You said SM is busier than Dupont Circle "on the weekends." That's plausible because Dupont Circle doesn't have one long strip that's typically packed with pedestrians. It has more of a "gentle" flow of pedestrian volume throughout the day.
SM is not busier than Georgetown though. And it is not busier than U Street. U Street, far more than Dupont Circle, is a walking strip where people literally just go there and walk up and down the street all night. It doesn't attract much in the way of tourists, however.
West Village is certainly not a typical urban residential neighborhood. Aside from the high residential density, there are also a number of companies located within or adjacent to the West Village and a very substantial number of tourists.
The most urban part of Santa Monica is similar to the West Village in that sense but not to as great of a scale.
But what bearing does that have on his claim that one place is busier "on the weekends"? Most of those companies won't be open.
That guy is probably referring to limited areas of hyper-pedestrian activity that, in my experience, Santa Monica does have. That's because it is a "go to" area in a way that not even the West Village is. That's why somewhere like Georgetown, which is far less dense than Dupont Circle, has much more pedestrian activity on a typical Saturday than Dupont Circle. It is the default "go to" for the majority of tourists (other than the National Mall) and suburbanites alike.
If we want to talk about a strip that's consistently loaded with pedestrians on a typical Saturday, I would point to 125th Street.
Suburbanites head to Dupont Circle, Georgetown, Adams Morgan/U St on the weekends.
There isnt alot of other places for them to go for fun, as I've pointed out before.
Same goes for tourists.
Suburbanites head to Penn Quarter, Chinatown, City Center, Dupont Circle, Logan Circle, Georgetown, Adams Morgan, U Street NW Corridor (Adams Morgan is not the same neighborhood as U St), Shaw, H Street NE corridor, and (increasingly) Navy Yard for fun.
You are incorrect that there isn't a lot of places for them to go for fun.
Both South Beach and Santa Monica have highly concentrated areas of "hyper" pedestrian activity.
South Beach, yeah, but only a few hours a week. Santa Monica, no, not really 3rd Street rarely gets crush level busy. In contrast, Dupont Circle is active seven days a week, basically all day, and the West Village, depending on boundaries, is even busier (probably much busier). Obviously a place with 20 hours of daily activity is more active than one with maybe 10 hours of weekly activity.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
There is no area of Dupont Circle, or the Village for that matter, that I would characterize as having "hyper" pedestrian activity since those areas are first and foremost residential areas.
Hmm, 6th Ave/West 4th is VERY busy all day, every day. It sits atop one of the busiest subway hubs in the country. It's probably busier than any intersection in the country outside of Manhattan.
7th Ave/Christopher is also atop a busy subway hub and is only slightly less busy. All of 6th 7th, Christopher, Hudson, 8th Street, Bleecker Street and Greenwich Ave. are busy all the time. All of these streets are busier than anywhere in Santa Monica, and anywhere in South Beach excepting Ocean, Collins and Lincoln on weekend nights (and even then, 6th/W. 4th is busier).
In Dupont, everywhere along Connecticut is generally busier, but esp. right around the Metro. Ave. P is also quite active.
Honestly, there's a decent portion of SF that isn't that walkable. The entire southwestern quadrant of the city is not that walkable. Really, there's the highly urban and walkable northeast quadrant, than it sort of peters out after that to areas that pretty much function as very dense suburbs.
Hell, I don't even consider the outer Richmond or outer sunset areas to be all that walkable. I mean, yeah the houses come up to the street, but in terms of function, it functions no differently than a dense suburb like you see in Los Angeles. Here's an example of what I'm talking about: https://goo.gl/maps/vUvnL694JC22
SF's intense urban environment is only found in a 15 square mile area. The rest might as well be the less urbane areas of Los Angeles.
NYC is really the only city in America that truly has that sort of "intense urban environment" over a large area and not just concentrated in and around downtown. It's the only one that can compete with Paris, Barcelona, Madrid, Rome, London, Tokyo, Shanghai, Hong Kong,Milan, Buenos Aires, etc.
I used to live in the middle Richmond and found the outer Richmond to be incredibly walkable. I used to walk to the beach from my apartment and then back again, frequently. I never felt like I wasn't in a dense city at any point. There are services/restaurants/amenities in these areas for people, so they can walk to these things, if they want.
The outer Sunset is plenty walkable, too. I just walked from embarcadero BART to the beach (through GG park), then down to the Zoo (one of the most southwestern parts of SF), and then east over to Balboa Park BART. At no point did I feel like I was not in a dense city - it was completely walkable the entire time.
I don't know what you're talking about, really...either your definition of "walkable" is really weird, or you're not very familiar with SF.
Maybe you think "walkable" = dense downtown urban density? I don't know...that certainly isn't my definition (nor is it what I think most people use to mean "walkable"). But the entire city is very walkable - you're pretty wrong on that - you can live anywhere in the City without a car and be just fine (walk and bike everywhere). Most people in the outer areas have cars - sure - but it's not 100% necessary at all like it is in suburban areas (where the nearest services are often miles away on roads that have terrible pedestrian infrastructure).
I'll also mention, what city doesn't "peter out" from the center? Even NYC's outer edges are significantly less dense than their center (but they're still very walkable). Your argument here is fundamentally flawed, I think.
That's my point though. The first link isn't what I would call an "intense urban environment". It doesn't feel like you're in the big big city.
The 2nd link though is more intense though. I didn't say only the NE quadrant was urbane, but that's where the extremely intense urban environment is where it feels like you're in a very big city.
Except that first link (the Outer Sunset) is an example of one of SF's least "big city" neighborhoods, yet it still has a classically urban, walkable form. That's not something you find in the outer areas of LA. And while the Northeast quadrant is certainly the densest and most urban part of the city, there are still plenty of areas outside of the NE quadrant (including the neighborhoods I listed previously and others) that have a "big city" feel.
South Beach, yeah, but only a few hours a week. Santa Monica, no, not really 3rd Street rarely gets crush level busy. In contrast, Dupont Circle is active seven days a week, basically all day, and the West Village, depending on boundaries, is even busier (probably much busier). Obviously a place with 20 hours of daily activity is more active than one with maybe 10 hours of weekly activity.
I can't vouch for SM as much. Ocean Drive has pedestrian crushes, but as you say, they restricted to certain hours on the weekend.
I couldn't find any data on Miami Beach pedestrian counts. There are a few that give us some sense of what we're talking about.
5th Avenue - 31,850 (21st/22nd Streets)(12 hour count)
125th Street - 28,200 (Adam Clayton Powell)(8 hour count)
Winter Street - 27,573 (east of Tremont) (11 hour count)
Walnut Street - 24,013 (1700 block on Saturday)(24 hour count)
7th Street (DC) - 19,700 (H Street, NW)(10 hour count)
W. 14th Street (NYC) - 6,629 (b/w Hudson and 8th Ave)(5 hour count)
In Dupont, everywhere along Connecticut is generally busier, but esp. right around the Metro. Ave. P is also quite active.
You mean P Street. P Street is probably busiest east of Dupont Circle near the Whole Foods. There's also a lot of activity to the west of the circle but it is far from being a "crush." You'll find that in Georgetown but not in Dupont.
You mean P Street. P Street is probably busiest east of Dupont Circle near the Whole Foods. There's also a lot of activity to the west of the circle but it is far from being a "crush." You'll find that in Georgetown but not in Dupont.
Yeah, Dupont in general has lost some of its luster as the crowds have moved on to 14th street and Shaw to a lesser extent. Conn Ave south of the circle is struggling with retail vacanies. North of the circle is doing much better, but even that is somewhat stoggy.
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