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View Poll Results: Best Urban Core?
Boston 25 15.63%
San Francisco 44 27.50%
Toronto 70 43.75%
DC 15 9.38%
Minneapolis 6 3.75%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-23-2017, 02:02 PM
 
9,701 posts, read 6,666,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YIMBY View Post
It is? So no one attends US Bank Stadium (NFL), Target Center (NBA & WNBA), Target Field (MLB), none of the smaller music venues, restaurants, retail stores, farmers markets, theaters, etc... ? Gotcha.
Minneapolis is not in the same league as these other cities.

I don't know hat you mean about citing football stadia and the like. Those things are generally terrible for urban vitality. Cities with lots of downtown stadia are generally pretty dead.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:11 PM
 
1,167 posts, read 1,178,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Minneapolis is not in the same league as these other cities.

I don't know hat you mean about citing football stadia and the like. Those things are generally terrible for urban vitality. Cities with lots of downtown stadia are generally pretty dead.
You are right. It's not in the same league as the other cities, especially Toronto and San Fran. I did go back and edit my post and stated MPLS is the odd one out.

As far as the stadiums in downtown MPLS are concerned, they aren't located in complete dead zones like most stadiums in other cities are. They aren't surrounded by a sea of parking lots; they're very accessible (light-rail, commuter rail, and bike trails / lanes); and are within short walking distance to bars, restaurants and other amenities. Also, there are events in these stadiums throughout the year (except Target Field).

The OP's criteria is: vibrancy, walk-ability, nightlife, jobs, and amenities

Downtown MPLS ranks higher than most downtown areas in regards to this criteria, but not the ones on this list.

Last edited by YIMBY; 06-23-2017 at 02:21 PM..
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
1,239 posts, read 1,531,818 times
Reputation: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by North 42 View Post
I find it's an exercise in futility to even bother to try to debate anything Toronto or Canada based with NOLA 101 and a couple of other well known Toronto/Canada haters on this site. It's like talking to a brick wall, regardless of the proven facts that are put out there, they will always dispute them, and then show their own blatant ignorance for all to see, with their ridiculous attempts at a rebuttal!
Honestly, it goes both ways. The Toronto and Canada boosters and homers on this site are mostly insufferable and hostile to views counter to their own or which aren't as glowing or complimentary to their city and/or nation. They are also quick to try to dismiss measures which don't show the city or country in a good light or as lesser than, i.e. GDP and metro population.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:50 PM
 
615 posts, read 313,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Happy to do so. Everything you wrote is quite obviously untrue.

1.
Your first claim is that Buffalo and Toronto weren't comparable in size/importance. This is obviously false.

This Toronto article does a good job summarizing the postwar era, when the cities were roughly equal, and when Torontonians often went to Toronto for a good time.
That time when Buffalo was as big a deal as Toronto

Bufalo was wealthier than Toronto back then, and the populations were comparable. Both metros had around 900k residents around the end of WW2, per U.S. Census and Stats Canada.

2.
Your second claim is that Toronto has a lot of prewar highrises compared to other North American cities. This is quite obviously untrue. There are almost no prewar buildings of note outside the Royal York Hotel.

Emporis lists all highrises for cities around the world, and Toronto has almost no pre-1960 highrises. In contrast, these other cities tend to have a number of major (often 400 or 500 ft.+) prewar highrises of which Toronto obviously has none. Even the Royal York isn't exactly tall or super-renowned.

I don't think there's a single pre 1960's highrise among Toronto's 50 or 75 tallest buildings. That's kind of incredible. There was one 300 ft.+ building built in Toronto from the onset of the Great Depression until the 1960's.

3.
Your third claim is that Toronto does have a large prewar core compared to these other cities, which is, on its face, absurd. How could a 1950-era metro of 900k have a bigger core than a 1950-era metro of, say 4-5 million?

Toronto is the only one of these cities where suburban-style housing is plentiful right in the city core, because Toronto was still quite small during the earliest eras of suburbanization, so the streetcar suburbs are right off Yonge and the like.

4.
Your fourth claim is that Bloor isn't the top retail street in Canada, which is completely ridiculous. It's like a French person arguing that the Champs Elysees isn't the showplace retail street of France.

Bloor has, by far, the highest retail rents in Canada. It's always been know in Canada as the "Mink Mile"; the Fifth or Madison Ave. or Rodeo Drive of Canada:
Study Reveals Canada's Top Retail Street Rents

Bloor has all the major Canadian flagships. The flagship Holt Renfew (basically the Canadian version of Saks or Neiman Marcus) is right on Bloor, and actually in the Streetview I posted. Bloor has Cartier, Hermes, Chanel and all the flagship luxury retailers for Canada, all within of a block of my Streetview posting.

To argue it isn't the premiere shopping street in Canada is disingenuous to the extreme.
Your primary argument is lack of prewar structures, which is ridiculous. It's a copout argument to prop up these other cities who are quite frankly out of their league compared to Toronto. Lack of pre-war structures does not take away from Toronto's core.

I will take this time to mention that the distillery district has the largest continuous collection of Victorian architecture in North America. But I digress.

Toronto's core is significantly larger, more populated, and one of the densest. It is 4x the size of SF and even larger than Boston. It is highly residential as well as commercial, and very diverse in terms of its neighborhoods.

Nearly 800 people live in just one tower at Yonge and Bloor, and the number will grow to over 1200 when the supertall across the street is completed. No consider how many residential towers there are in downtown Toronto and how many are on the way. You're not going to match this with cities like Boston and San Francisco, let alone Minneapolis, no matter how many pre-war structures they have.

Yonge st. south of Bloor is continuously PACKED for over 12 blocks at almost all hours of the day:



It goes on for blocks and it's all organic. These are not seasonal tourists. These are residents. Where in SF do you have this street life?

Granted Yonge north of Dundas is not a particularly pretty street (nor is it among my favorites), but a redesign is in the development stages.

Here is the waterfront.



And countless other streets and neighborhoods.

Toronto's core only has NYC has its superior in North America as far as density, population, and vibrancy are concerned. Parts of the city (i.e. yonge south of Dundas) could have you swearing you're in NYC. It's just on a smaller scale.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:33 PM
 
2,296 posts, read 1,061,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
Your primary argument is lack of prewar structures, which is ridiculous. It's a copout argument to prop up these other cities who are quite frankly out of their league compared to Toronto. Lack of pre-war structures does not take away from Toronto's core.

I will take this time to mention that the distillery district has the largest continuous collection of Victorian architecture in North America. But I digress.

Toronto's core is significantly larger, more populated, and one of the densest. It is 4x the size of SF and even larger than Boston. It is highly residential as well as commercial, and very diverse in terms of its neighborhoods.

Nearly 800 people live in just one tower at Yonge and Bloor, and the number will grow to over 1200 when the supertall across the street is completed. No consider how many residential towers there are in downtown Toronto and how many are on the way. You're not going to match this with cities like Boston and San Francisco, let alone Minneapolis, no matter how many pre-war structures they have.

Yonge st. south of Bloor is continuously PACKED for over 12 blocks at almost all hours of the day:

Toronto's core only has NYC has its superior in North America as far as density, population, and vibrancy are concerned. Parts of the city (i.e. yonge south of Dundas) could have you swearing you're in NYC. It's just on a smaller scale.
Thank you for acknowledging Toronto boosters see their city as SUPERIOR TO ALL NOT NYC IN THE US.

You left out LA, as larger then Toronto. But I'm sure its a Toronto SUPERIOR to LA in all these areas on C-D to discuss you listed.

This is what happens when Toronto is in the mix. Like when NYC is left in. Few deny NYC's status. But once anyone from there chimes in declaring its win. Leaves little left to discuss other cities have to boast. Depends what other cities are in the mix too.

Some try to be more subtle in declaring their city WINS - virtually all relevant categories? But the underlining assumption? Gets proven when one does declare NONE come close to their Toronto but a NYC? As here for Toronto.
Nothing personal. Not my aim. Just seems Torontonians..... see the US and World ....doesn't give enough Prestige, Value Status and True Level in Global Ranking to Toronto.

Maybe in a few years? All will be given to Toronto you claim?
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:44 PM
 
615 posts, read 313,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
Thank you for acknowledging Toronto boosters see their city as SUPERIOR TO ALL NOT NYC IN THE US.

You left out LA, as larger then Toronto. But I'm sure its a Toronto SUPERIOR to LA in all these areas on C-D to discuss you listed.

This is what happens when Toronto is in the mix. Like when NYC is left in. Few deny NYC's status. But once anyone from there chimes in declaring its win. Leaves little left to discuss other cities have to boast. Depends what other cities are in the mix too.

Some try to be more subtle in declaring their city WINS - virtually all relevant categories? But the underlining assumption? Gets proven when one does declare NONE come close to their Toronto but a NYC? As here for Toronto.
Nothing personal. Not my aim. Just seems Torontonians..... see the US and World ....doesn't give enough Prestige, Value Status and True Level in Global Ranking to Toronto.

Maybe in a few years? All will be given to Toronto you claim?
It's the objective truth. A lot of people here don't like it and want to even ban discussion of Toronto, but it is what it is.

And LA doesn't have much of a core. It's downtown is relatively small, primarily office and dead after 5pm.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:52 PM
 
9,701 posts, read 6,666,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
Toronto's core only has NYC has its superior in North America as far as density, population, and vibrancy are concerned. Parts of the city (i.e. yonge south of Dundas) could have you swearing you're in NYC. It's just on a smaller scale.
Comparing Toronto to NYC? I mean, seriously? LOL.

OK, now this is completely absurd, and not based on anything. Toronto's core isn't even as nice as that of Montreal. Even Brooklyn alone is like 100x more urban/historic/charming than Toronto.

Overall, Toronto is about the size of Dallas, Detroit, Miami, Atlanta, Boston, Houston and the like, and has a smaller economy than like a dozen U.S. cities. It doesn't even have the cultural facilities of a Cleveland or Pittsburgh. It has less prewar legacy than a Buffalo.

Toronto forumers, I think more than those of any other city forumers on C-D, have absurd delusions of grandeur re. their city, and actual facts/data are of no use.

There are tons of great things about Toronto- the city is vibrant, booming, super diverse and condo towers going up everywhere. But the homerism is comically extreme, even for C-D.
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:00 PM
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Location: Ontario
6,509 posts, read 3,785,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQalex View Post
Honestly, it goes both ways. The Toronto and Canada boosters and homers on this site are mostly insufferable and hostile to views counter to their own or which aren't as glowing or complimentary to their city and/or nation. They are also quick to try to dismiss measures which don't show the city or country in a good light or as lesser than, i.e. GDP and metro population.
Sort if agree but....unfortunately must wary when comparing a Canadian coty with a US city...
two different countries with two different ways of capturing stats.
USA has MSA's and CSA's ....is a US city the same as a Canadian city CMA ?
...not sure, I suspect slightly different thresholds.
Same with GDP....US city GDP stat could include entire GDP for the gigantic CSA...
some CSAs cover a huge area, sometimes over 10,000 square miles. Canadian do not have
equivalent CSA measurements. For Toronto, I guess the so called Golden Horseshoe would
be similar to a CSA, not sure.

If they in the same country it would be much easier to make
a fair comparison.
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Old 06-24-2017, 01:49 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 10,568,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post

I will take this time to mention that the distillery district has the largest continuous collection of Victorian architecture in North America. But I digress.

It goes on for blocks and it's all organic. These are not seasonal tourists. These are residents. Where in SF do you have this street life?

Parts of the city (i.e. yonge south of Dundas) could have you swearing you're in NYC. It's just on a smaller scale.
Agree SF is not any more urban than Toronto, but please do not compare Toronto with NYC, if you mean Manhattan. One a couple of streets yes, Toronto is more like Queens than Manhattan. Your video does remind me how unattractive Toronto is. And that was Yonge st. If you go on Church, Jarvis, Queen, Spadina etc, that's even worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
It's the objective truth. A lot of people here don't like it and want to even ban discussion of Toronto, but it is what it is.

And LA doesn't have much of a core. It's downtown is relatively small, primarily office and dead after 5pm.
Toronto and LA are two very different cities in different directions. If LA has a decent, safe, walkable and vibrant core, it could be easily my favourable American city, unfortunately it doesn't and therefore it is more reasonable to leave LA out when talk about urbanity. LA is a freak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Comparing Toronto to NYC? I mean, seriously? LOL.

OK, now this is completely absurd, and not based on anything. Toronto's core isn't even as nice as that of Montreal. Even Brooklyn alone is like 100x more urban/historic/charming than Toronto.

Overall, Toronto is about the size of Dallas, Detroit, Miami, Atlanta, Boston, Houston and the like, and has a smaller economy than like a dozen U.S. cities. It doesn't even have the cultural facilities of a Cleveland or Pittsburgh. It has less prewar legacy than a Buffalo.
Agree Toronto's core is not as nice (although bigger than) as Montreal. Toronto for reason lack ambition and sense of beauty, so it keeps producing mediocre landscape and architecture. But Brooklyin is 100X more urban? Now you are just being dramatic. What is 100x?

Dallas, Detroit, Atlanta and Houston? Well, only if you only look at official stats such as population or GDP, which has little to do with "urban life". (you seen obsessed with those metrics as if they mean so much). Boston is somewhat close but anyone who has lived in both cities know Boston is significantly small and less lively than Toronto.

Last edited by botticelli; 06-24-2017 at 01:57 AM..
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Old 06-24-2017, 05:13 AM
 
Location: Windsor Ontario
1,454 posts, read 1,207,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQalex View Post
Honestly, it goes both ways. The Toronto and Canada boosters and homers on this site are mostly insufferable and hostile to views counter to their own or which aren't as glowing or complimentary to their city and/or nation. They are also quick to try to dismiss measures which don't show the city or country in a good light or as lesser than, i.e. GDP and metro population.
Yes, it does go both ways, but I find they almost constantly have to battle false information put out there from only a few well know Canada and Toronto hating trolls, who know nothing about the city, but pretent to know everything about it! It's obsessive and constant, and they deserve to be called out. Its like they can't deal with anything in Canada or Toronto possibly being better or even equal to an American city, its very weird and creepy!

Now, I'm not saying that all the Canadian posters on here are perfect, far from it. Some are absolutely ridiculous and extremely embarrassing to us other Canadians, and they will troll some Americans and American cities just as badly as their American counterparts do to us. But many are very genuine and only want to counter some of the misinformation that is thrown around as proof, when it's been proven to be blatantly false!

Sometimes I have a hard time coming on here some days because of the vitriolic hyperbole is just too much to read through, and I get so frustrated by the petty bickering that just never goes anywhere! I can feel my blood pressure rising sometimes, so I just stop reading and move on, it's not healthy! I much prefer positive dialogue and healthy debates to all this negative **** throwing!

Last edited by North 42; 06-24-2017 at 05:38 AM..
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