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Unless the topic is explicitly about population and economic size/growth, those are usually among the last considerations in CvC matchups. Fairly or unfairly, it seems that Indianapolis routinely loses to other places in these matchups due to other reasons.
Economy and employment is one of the listed categories. I imagine next you're going to tell me Hampton Roads has a larger downtown. Indy has nearly 30,000 residents living downtown. You can combine all seven cities downtowns and it would still be smaller. I'm trying to be objective. Heck, I live in Chesapeake which is in Hampton Roads but other than perhaps outdoors recreation, weather and historical sites there isn't much of a comparison.
Economy and employment is one of the listed categories.
Yes, one of twelve categories. It's not the only category.
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I imagine next you're going to tell me Hampton Roads has a larger downtown. Indy has nearly 30,000 residents living downtown. You can combine all seven cities downtowns and it would still be smaller. I'm trying to be objective. Heck, I live in Chesapeake which is in Hampton Roads but other than perhaps outdoors recreation, weather and historical sites there isn't much of a comparison.
I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about which metro objectively wins any individual category here or the match-up overall; I'm talking about how Indianapolis usually fares in these city-vs-city comparisons. Whatever the reasons, it tends to not be favored.
Yes, one of twelve categories. It's not the only category.
I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about which metro objectively wins any individual category here or the match-up overall; I'm talking about how Indianapolis usually fares in these city-vs-city comparisons. Whatever the reasons, it tends to not be favored.
If you go to Indianapolis, you'll get it...
.........
There isn't a single city in Hampton Roads on the level of Indy, and I wouldn't place the Hampton Roads region all that highly over Indy, either; HR is a little overrated as a region....
What I will say is when you look at Virginia Beach/Norfolk the way you should, as a twin city combo the way people look at Minny/St Paul, there is a bit of a debate to be had. Just those two as a twin city combo, not the region, not any singular Tidewater city....
For sure I'd say we are competitive in:
•urban character. Neither of these places are particularly urban, an argument can be made either way...
•weather and natural beauty. Eye of the beholder, though "beautiful" certainly isn't something you'd even hear most Indianans associate with Indy...
•interesting and walkable neighborhoods for sure. This is highly competitive...
•crime, Indianapolis alone is more dangerous than both VB or Nfk individually; the combination of both is significantly safer...
•sense if community...
architecture isn't mind blowing in either; comparable...
Indy has ~865,000 people in ~360 sq miles. VB/Nfk has ~700,000 people in ~300 sq miles----->if you have the knowledge (that most posters understandably wouldn't) that the lower 100 sq miles of Virginia Beach, which equates to 41% of its land area, is only home to ~16,000 residents (less than 4% of Beachers total), you're getting a VB/Nfk city of ~678,000 people in ~198 sq miles...
Compared to ~864,000 people in ~362 sq miles in Indy. Looking at it that way you see a lot more comparison, and being objective I wouldn't say its greater than Indy but it certainly can give one insight into a more balanced comparison...
There isn't a single city in Hampton Roads on the level of Indy, and I wouldn't place the Hampton Roads region all that highly over Indy, either; HR is a little overrated as a region....
What I will say is when you look at Virginia Beach/Norfolk the way you should, as a twin city combo the way people look at Minny/St Paul, there is a bit of a debate to be had. Just those two as a twin city combo, not the region, not any singular Tidewater city....
For sure I'd say we are competitive in:
•urban character. Neither of these places are particularly urban, an argument can be made either way...
•weather and natural beauty. Eye of the beholder, though "beautiful" certainly isn't something you'd even hear most Indianans associate with Indy...
•interesting and walkable neighborhoods for sure. This is highly competitive...
•crime, Indianapolis alone is more dangerous than both VB or Nfk individually; the combination of both is significantly safer...
•sense if community...
architecture isn't mind blowing in either; comparable...
Indy has ~865,000 people in ~360 sq miles. VB/Nfk has ~700,000 people in ~300 sq miles----->if you have the knowledge (that most posters understandably wouldn't) that the lower 100 sq miles of Virginia Beach, which equates to 41% of its land area, is only home to ~16,000 residents (less than 4% of Beachers total), you're getting a VB/Nfk city of ~678,000 people in ~198 sq miles...
Compared to ~864,000 people in ~362 sq miles in Indy. Looking at it that way you see a lot more comparison, and being objective I wouldn't say its greater than Indy but it certainly can give one insight into a more balanced comparison...
By the same token most people aren't aware that a very large chunk of Indianapolis population centers a few miles from North street, South street, East street and West street around the Mile Square which are the original borders of Downtown Indianapolis. For comparison purposes, Virginia Beach alone is 497 sq miles compared to Indianapolis' 360 sq miles. Marion County which is the county in which Indianapolis resides is 403 sq miles. Square miles of notable cities in Hampton Roads, Suffolk (429 sq miles), Chesapeake (351 sq miles)
*Downtown there is not comparison whatsoever.
*Sense of community ... I'm African American so I attend those events. HR has a rich HBCU tradition. But outside HBCU functions there is little else. Something in the Water was a success and could turn into something very special. However, HR has nothing comparable to the Black Expo which regularly has 200,000 in attendance. The Circle City Classic a one day event that gathers around 30,000 attendees. Also there is nothing in HR similar to the Madam CJ Walker Theatre Center which throws regular cultural events. HR has no Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Park and Landmark Memorial or the Crispus Attucks Museum. Indy's Asante Children Theater is very special. One would be hard press to find African American murals sprinkled around Hampton Roads cities such as the Mari Evans Mural on Mass Ave., or the Jazz Master on Indiana Avenue mural which features jazz greats like Wes Montgomery, Jimmy Coe, Slide Hampton, Freddy Hubbard and others who developed their craft in Indy. There is definitely a cultural vibe and sense of community there. Hampton Roads is more like seven feuding cities. Regional cooperation in Hampton Roads is almost non-existent.
*As far as architecture ... c'mon.
*Cost of Living ... Indy is cheaper
*Economy and employment ... Indy has a diverse market. Let's not talk about the Biotech, Earth Science, and Medical, and technology jobs. There are definitely more level 1 trauma centers, hospitals, medical center and medical university . Indy has as almost many level 1 trauma as the entire state of Virginia.
*Crime ... Indy is a violent city. A lot Midwest cities are violent general. Overall HR is safe with the exception of parts of Portsmouth, Norfolk and Bad News. Indy's crime is mainly on the eastside of town, but I must admit that I always look forward to going to the annual eastside reunion. I ain't skurred.
*Outdoor recreations is no contest. HR by a mile. Other types of recreation is where Indy becomes competitive. Indy has better nightlife, more sporting events a lot more craft beer bars. Indy hosts a lot of special events so surprisingly there is plenty of tourism as well. Indy's tourism revenue exceeds Hampton Roads. Who would have guessed that considering that the prevailing thought (at least on CD) is that Indy is a place to avoid at all cost.
*Public transportation is a toss up. Indianapolis just started building a BRT system. The Red Line is up and operational but how successful it will be is up in the air.
*Weather is HR all the way. More sunny days. Less snowy days. Indy is gray from December until March which is depressing.
Urban character is a tie ... Indianapolis torn down much of it's urban character to make room for the interstate 464 and IUPUI. A lot of history was lost but there is still enough intact to make it competitive.
By the same token most people aren't aware that a very large chunk of Indianapolis population centers a few miles from North street, South street, East street and West street around the Mile Square which are the original borders of Downtown Indianapolis. For comparison purposes, Virginia Beach alone is 497 sq miles compared to Indianapolis' 360 sq miles. Marion County which is the county in which Indianapolis resides is 403 sq miles. Square miles of notable cities in Hampton Roads, Suffolk (429 sq miles), Chesapeake (351 sq miles)
*Downtown there is not comparison whatsoever.
*Sense of community ... I'm African American so I attend those events. HR has a rich HBCU tradition. But outside HBCU functions there is little else. Something in the Water was a success and could turn into something very special. However, HR has nothing comparable to the Black Expo which regularly has 200,000 in attendance. The Circle City Classic a one day event that gathers around 30,000 attendees. Also there is nothing in HR similar to the Madam CJ Walker Theatre Center which throws regular cultural events. HR has no Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Park and Landmark Memorial or the Crispus Attucks Museum. Indy's Asante Children Theater is very special. One would be hard press to find African American murals sprinkled around Hampton Roads cities such as the Mari Evans Mural on Mass Ave., or the Jazz Master on Indiana Avenue mural which features jazz greats like Wes Montgomery, Jimmy Coe, Slide Hampton, Freddy Hubbard and others who developed their craft in Indy. There is definitely a cultural vibe and sense of community there. Hampton Roads is more like seven feuding cities. Regional cooperation in Hampton Roads is almost non-existent.
*As far as architecture ... c'mon.
*Cost of Living ... Indy is cheaper
*Economy and employment ... Indy has a diverse market. Let's not talk about the Biotech, Earth Science, and Medical, and technology jobs. There are definitely more level 1 trauma centers, hospitals, medical center and medical university . Indy has as almost many level 1 trauma as the entire state of Virginia.
*Crime ... Indy is a violent city. A lot Midwest cities are violent general. Overall HR is safe with the exception of parts of Portsmouth, Norfolk and Bad News. Indy's crime is mainly on the eastside of town, but I must admit that I always look forward to going to the annual eastside reunion. I ain't skurred.
*Outdoor recreations is no contest. HR by a mile. Other types of recreation is where Indy becomes competitive. Indy has better nightlife, more sporting events a lot more craft beer bars. Indy hosts a lot of special events so surprisingly there is plenty of tourism as well. Indy's tourism revenue exceeds Hampton Roads. Who would have guessed that considering that the prevailing thought (at least on CD) is that Indy is a place to avoid at all cost.
*Public transportation is a toss up. Indianapolis just started building a BRT system. The Red Line is up and operational but how successful it will be is up in the air.
*Weather is HR all the way. More sunny days. Less snowy days. Indy is gray from December until March which is depressing.
Urban character is a tie ... Indianapolis torn down much of it's urban character to make room for the interstate 464 and IUPUI. A lot of history was lost but there is still enough intact to make it competitive.
50% of VB's total area is water. Of VB's total land area, 41% of the land area (100 sq miles) is home to less than 4% of the population....
96.4% of Beachers live above The Green Line, so essentially the part of VB that is actually "Virginia Beach" is 144.7 sq miles of land, population ~434,000. Not an urban oasis by any stretch, but even within the part of the city where people actually live, urban form varies in certain areas. The most urban parts of Virginia Beach are identically urban to the typical Norfolk neighborhood--->Norfolk, a city on here that gets lauded for its urbanity and even within this thread, said to be more urban than Indy...VB by itself is more urban than people on here realize, people who have been to VB but only to the Oceanfront, and people who have never been but take all their urban gradings from the density of the city as a whole, people who don't know about The Green Line and don't know the fluctuation in urban character that western city neighborhoods have from eastern ones...
The average Virginia Beach and Norfolk neighborhood, most people wouldn't be able to tell them apart without the street sign identifiers. The most urban parts of Norfolk are more urban than anywhere in VB, but the most urban parts of Norfolk are small and aren't indicative of what the average Norfolk neighborhood looks like...
My point being, I'm not sure urban character is a tie. Maybe VB alone and Indy are a tie, VB and Nfk combined probably reach a sustained level of urbanity to a slightly higher degree. Understand, im not of the opinion it's a great margin...
The problem with Hampton Roads, that Indy has over it easily, is that the black professional class and black political presence is muted, which is frankly embarrassing for a region that is one of the blackest in the entire country, with centuries of black history. Black Tidewater is large in number but socially, punches below that belt, so I don't disagree at all that Black Indy is more impactful and noticeable across more platforms....
I don't have a disagreement with anything else you said...
By the same token Hampton Roads doesn't have architecture structures like Union Station (the first of its kind in the world), Soldier and Sailors Monument, Scottish Rite Cathedral (one of the largest Masonic building in the world), Murat Shrine Center ( the largest Shrine Center in North America), Benjamin Harrison House, James Whitcomb Riley Estate, Oldfield, Saint Mary's Catholic Church, Madam Walker Legacy Center.
Monuments don't count as architecture, although they can have a noticeable visual impact on the landscape.
I mentioned those examples in Hampton Roads because they are entire preserved districts of some of the earliest architectural styles in the U.S. Indianapolis can't match those, being a younger inland city although it has its own architectural jewels.
Many prominent cities have a large military presence. I am not sure why that is undesirable, especially considering all things current.
There's a difference between having a large military presence and being economically overreliant on the military. Places like San Diego and Seattle have a huge military presence but they also attract a lot of people for other reasons. Military installations don't act as magnets that fuel population growth in the same way as most other economic anchors.
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