Philadelphia v. Phoenix (best, Atlanta, Boston, cons)
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You're correct--there's no hard-and-fast density level to create a walkable environment, although there's an obvious correlation between the two.
The fact of the matter is the built environment is a critical factor when you're trying to create an environment that's ideal for pedestrians, and that's based on the exclusion of cars to the extent possible.
I agree with that as well. And there are areas of the Phoenix metro where this is the case. Recent photo of Tempe is below as one such example.
Please look up what a CSA is and how it compares to a MSA. There is no 'cheating'. Phoenix is a newer sunbelt city, and surrounded by desert, so naturally it has little to no CSA areas outside of its immediate MSA.
If anything, Phoenix is 'cheating' given that the square miles of its City limits is over 5 times that of Philadelphia.
If the City of Philadelphia had the same square miles as the City of Phoenix, the City of Philadelphia would probably be about 2.9 million.
Maybe or maybe not, the average urban density of Phoenix is higher than Philly. As you move outward Philly's density falls off whereas Phoenix stays very uniform. Also, note that just because the city limits include square miles doesn't mean it's developed area. Phoenix has annexed all kinds of land that is wide open space, to avoid being landlocked.
Oh yeah, I wasn't trying to single out Philadelphia, I think CSA is not a useful population metric for every city. I'm just arguing that if we're comparing the populations of the two, MSA (though imperfect) is much better than CSA. Earlier in the thread, someone said Philadelphia had 7.2 million people so it's 44% bigger than Phoenix which is true if you're looking at CSA, but comparing CSAs doesn't make any sense in the first place.
That was my comment why wouldn't it be relevant and even more useful? Think about it... How large is an airport? What would large events in an area consider? Major company relocation decisions? They're going to draw upon the CSA as a potential market because it's connected enough....
CSAs represent multiple metropolitan or micropolitan areas that have an employment interchange of at least 15%. CSAs often represent regions with overlapping labor and media markets.
IMO CSA size has a lot to do with how large a place feels.
Within the Phoenix MSA, you have Queen Creek to Buckeye, which is the same distance. About 80 miles.
And that is just the Phoenix MSA, not CSA.
Eh this isn't quite the same thing. Buckeye is the westernmost suburb of Phoenix and Queen Creek is the southeasternmost suburb. Both just happen to dwell on the outer edge of the Phoenix area. Driving from Queen Creek to Buckeye, you'll find it's almost all contiguous development. I'm not as familiar with the Philly area, though I'm willing to bet most of the drive between Dover and Philly looks like this: https://goo.gl/maps/2BDMXqYSiz9awH8Q7
That was my comment why wouldn't it be relevant and even more useful? Think about it... How large is an airport? What would large events in an area consider? Major company relocation decisions? They're going to draw upon the CSA as a potential market because it's connected enough....
CSAs represent multiple metropolitan or micropolitan areas that have an employment interchange of at least 15%. CSAs often represent regions with overlapping labor and media markets.
IMO CSA size has a lot to do with how large a place feels.
I just find CSAs far too expansive in their boundaries to really tell you anything about individual cities. For example, the CSA of Columbus, OH (my city) includes towns that are 80 miles away with nothing but farmland in between. Once you get into the boonies, I think it's reasonable to say you're no longer in the city.
Phoenix is built on a grid with major streets one-half mile apart sometimes 1-2 miles apart. Great for driving, but not so great if you need to cross the street on foot.
Eh this isn't quite the same thing. Buckeye is the westernmost suburb of Phoenix and Queen Creek is the southeasternmost suburb. Both just happen to dwell on the outer edge of the Phoenix area. Driving from Queen Creek to Buckeye, you'll find it's almost all contiguous development. I'm not as familiar with the Philly area, though I'm willing to bet most of the drive between Dover and Philly looks like this: https://goo.gl/maps/2BDMXqYSiz9awH8Q7
I'm not sure what the point of this back and forth with you and Penna is. But Dover is part of the Philadelphia CSA, not MSA, and as you said is not the same as going from Buckeye to Queen Creek.
A better comparison would be just before Trenton traveling I-95 South to Wilmington DE, ~90 miles of heavily developed areas all within the Philadelphia MSA. Or Reading, PA to Cherry Hill, NJ ~70 miles of developed areas.
The drive from Philadelphia to Dover is half very built up and half exurban. Once you get South of Bear, DE it becomes much more exurban. But Google Maps of highways can be deceiving. For example...
Philadelphia along with other Northeastern metros are very woodsy and lush and give a bucolic impression (one of the many things I love), when in reality this stretch of highway is surround by some of the most densely populated burbs in the Northeast.
But, these two metros could not be more different when really looking into the makeup, so the comparison of built-up areas is somewhat moot since they are developed in entirely different styles. And while each has their strengths, the Philadelphia metro runs away with most of the criteria in this thread.
I just find CSAs far too expansive in their boundaries to really tell you anything about individual cities. For example, the CSA of Columbus, OH (my city) includes towns that are 80 miles away with nothing but farmland in between. Once you get into the boonies, I think it's reasonable to say you're no longer in the city.
I can see why the CSA population aren't as impactful as MSA residents but I think it's incorrect to completely disregard that population base, especially when evaluating cities on amenities that would be based on inclusion of the money those people have. Things like whether or not another pro team is awarded to a city, new international flights, etc... would for sure factor those people in.
In the case of Philly the MSA to CSA population jump is pretty large, about 1 million people. 400K of those are from the Reading MSA, I'd argue those residents probably fly into/out of Philly's airport, they probably primarily support the Philly sports teams, probably also go to the Philly MSA for certain healthcare needs and probably educational opportunities etc... That makes Philly feel like larger than a 6 million person MSA.... maybe it's not right to count all of the million but I think it's incorrect to say 1 million extra people in an 80ish mile radius makes zero difference.
Phoenix does not have such a benefit. Tucson is over 100 miles away and has 1 population million MSA in and of itself.
Anyway, I get the point, even if you measure at the MSA level Philly is still 20% larger than Phoenix today which really isn't that close. That would be like excluding 2/3rds of the City of Phoenix's population.... But the CSA has to weigh in to some degree.
Phoenix is built on a grid with major streets one-half mile apart sometimes 1-2 miles apart. Great for driving, but not so great if you need to cross the street on foot.
Generally true but that doesn't mean there's no examples where Phoenix doesn't have walkable areas. But I'd much rather drive here than in Philly, which isn't something that personally bothers me. I happen to live in a fairly walkable part of the Phoenix area and can do a lot of things on foot or on bike.
Eh this isn't quite the same thing. Buckeye is the westernmost suburb of Phoenix and Queen Creek is the southeasternmost suburb. Both just happen to dwell on the outer edge of the Phoenix area. Driving from Queen Creek to Buckeye, you'll find it's almost all contiguous development. I'm not as familiar with the Philly area, though I'm willing to bet most of the drive between Dover and Philly looks like this: https://goo.gl/maps/2BDMXqYSiz9awH8Q7
I made a comparison with MSA and CSA.
Dover is not part of Philadelphia's MSA.
The Phoenix MSA extends as many miles out as Philadelphia's CSA. That is my point.
Maricopa County is almost as large as the state of CT in land area.
If the City of Philadelphia and City of Phoenix had the same overlay.
Philadelphia City population would be approx: 2.9 Million
Phoenix City population would remain at 1.58 Million.
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