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Another point I got out of that Illinois study was that even students who took AP courses saw a drop in college GPA vs high school, thus lending credence to the theory that AP courses are not so similar to college work as some want to believe.
Accreditation means little. For-profits have accreditation.
You are just making up your own debates now. I never said CC students couldn't make it.
All I said was the average student at a CC is of lesser quality and when you have that the classes will be easier. You also have the better educated and more successful teachers at four year universities.
These are basic facts that are common knowledge. I find your one off debates about specific programs useless and so will anyone that has a well-rounded knowledge of the education system in the US. I'm sure I can find a student at a CC that is smarter than one that attends UNC-CH. That doesn't change the fact that 99% of the kids at UNC-CH are smarter than ones at a CC.
You obviously did not read what I posted from one of the links, based off of actual data
"Upon reviewing the statistics,research demonstrates that community college students tend to earn a higher GPA than students who begin their academic careers at a four-year university. For example, according to the UNLV Institutional Analysis and Planning, transfer students from community college maintain a higher GPA in comparison to first-year students. "
So your argument is that overall 4-year college students are smarter, yet have no facts to back up the statement, yet I provide information that is based on statistics showing that CC students who transfer to 4-year schools have, and maintain higher GPA's than students who did not attend a CC, which quite simply means your wrong, because if students in 4-year schools were smarter, as you state and again with no proof, then they would have the higher GPA's, and would maintain the higher GPA's.
And since you have issue with program specifics, this statistic is based on all CC students, and is not program specific.
You obviously did not read what I posted from one of the links, based off of actual data
"Upon reviewing the statistics,research demonstrates that community college students tend to earn a higher GPA than students who begin their academic careers at a four-year university. For example, according to the UNLV Institutional Analysis and Planning, transfer students from community college maintain a higher GPA in comparison to first-year students. "
So your argument is that overall 4-year college students are smarter, yet have no facts to back up the statement, yet I provide information that is based on statistics showing that CC students who transfer to 4-year schools have, and maintain higher GPA's than students who did not attend a CC, which quite simply means your wrong, because if students in 4-year schools were smarter, as you state and again with no proof, then they would have the higher GPA's, and would maintain the higher GPA's.
And since you have issue with program specifics, this statistic is based on all CC students, and is not program specific.
The facts are the link I posted among many other you can find. It's an independent study and not a shady article from a website that profits off of promoting community colleges.
Find the actual UNLV study if you want to use it.
It doesn't get anymore clear cut than ACT and GPA scores for students entering a CC and a University.
The difference between student in your typical 4 yr college and a 2 yr college is probably smaller than that between IL schools and regular 4 yr school.
The only fair comparison is to compare the students in a typical community college who are are in transfer programs (those designed to go on to 4 yr schools) and their peers in 4 yr schools. Otherwise its apples and oranges.
Why would that be?
It's apples and oranges because it proves you wrong? The debate is the student body as a whole.
It's apples and oranges because it proves you wrong? The debate is the student body as a whole.
No, lkb0714 is absolutely correct. A comparison of students in a certificate program for "Floral Design" at a CC and students in the physics department at the University of Illinois is apples to oranges, at best.
The smart ones go to a community college for the first two years to save a bundle of money before transfering to a four year school. Otherwise a student can easily spend many years at a CC, but this is their own fault since they lack goals or are unwilling to meet their goals.
It's apples and oranges because it proves you wrong? The debate is the student body as a whole.
So you are debating that the average community college student is different than a student in an Ivy League school? Talk about shifting goal posts.
Fine, move your goals posts all you want. Everyone here knows that you are narrowing this debate to IL schools on the one end and making it as inclusive (all CC students not just the university bound ones) as possible because you know your point is very weak otherwise.
Reality, CC students in transfer programs are going to have teachers who teach geared towards their transfer. Hell, in the summer a large number if not the majority of the CC students are university kids trying to get an extra class in. Those same CC students are going to be in classes with the other students planning on transferring. It is not as if the kid in the automotive program is going to be in organic chem with the transferring students.
So you are debating that the average community college student is different than a student in an Ivy League school? Talk about shifting goal posts.
Fine, move your goals posts all you want. Everyone here knows that you are narrowing this debate to IL schools on the one end and making it as inclusive (all CC students not just the university bound ones) as possible because you know your point is very weak otherwise.
Reality, CC students in transfer programs are going to have teachers who teach geared towards their transfer. Hell, in the summer a large number if not the majority of the CC students are university kids trying to get an extra class in. Those same CC students are going to be in classes with the other students planning on transferring. It is not as if the kid in the automotive program is going to be in organic chem with the transferring students.
My point has always been as that the entire student body at a CC are lesser students than the entire body of students at a university on average.
If you care to make the debate CC students who go on to a university vs those who start in one I'd still take the kids in a four year university because on average they have been more successful in HS and got into a university. That data would be almost impossible to find though so it's rather pointless.
No, lkb0714 is absolutely correct. A comparison of students in a certificate program for "Floral Design" at a CC and students in the physics department at the University of Illinois is apples to oranges, at best.
I thought the debate was over like courses at the two different educational institutions.
So what you are saying is a CC has vocational programs that attract students who are not very good academically? I agree.
The data compares all CC freshman to university freshman. Mind you they have an average ACT score which likely means the kid at the CC tried to go to a University.
It's really simple on a high level. GPA and ACT are lower for kids at a CC.
So what you are saying is a CC has vocational programs that attract students who are not very good academically? I agree.
The data compares all CC freshman to university freshman. Mind you they have an average ACT score which likely means the kid at the CC tried to go to a University.
It's really simple on a high level. GPA and ACT are lower for kids at a CC.
No, I do not think people in vocational programs are necessarily "not very good academically". In Illiniois, as here in CO, all high school students take the ACT. Try again.
Springfield – Although ACT is designed for students who plan to attend college, Illinois requires all 11th graders, unless they’re exempt, to take the ACT as part of the required state testing under the federal No Child Left Behind law. Illinois’ composite average of 20.7 is the highest among the eight states in which 90 percent or more graduates tested. Other states with 90 percent or more of their graduates taking the ACT include Colorado, Louisiana, Tennessee, Wyoming, Michigan, Kentucky and Mississippi.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 12-10-2011 at 08:30 PM..
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