Charlotte or Columbia? (Charleston, Rock Hill, Newberry: home, rent, lease)

[sandlapper]

Originally Posted by moedog

Are you kidding? You continue to quote two DIFFERENT measures of metro areas when comparing Charlotte and Columbia. For Columbia you use CSA which is a new US Census term which takes in metro areas plus nearby rural areas. Can you sit, with a straight face, and tell me Newberry is a part of the Columbia metro area? Please, Sumter or Orangeburg would have made more sense (and according to this chart both are their own "metro" areas, and both are losing population). For Charlotte, you use figures for MSA, a much more restricted area which does not even include many close-in highly populated areas. But ok, if you want to compare apples to apples---the CSA population of the Columbia metro is 760,000 and the CSA population of the Charlotte metro is 2,194,000 which I believe is a sizable difference---using the same definition, Columbia has grown by 8.5% between 2000-2006 while Charlotte has grown by 15.5%, one of the highest of any large city in the country. The more traditional definition of metro areas, however, would be Charlotte 1,850,000 and Columbia 630,000, as I mentioned originally. Using either definition, Charlotte is almost three times as populous as Columbia.

You may want to thoroughly look at the sources again because you seem to be getting them confused. I used the MSA population for both Columbia and Charlotte that I obtained from the Census Bureau, (usually the only legit recognized source for obtaining city and state population). If you check the links again you will see that. http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...b07-51tbl2.pdf At the top of the table it says "100 most populous metropolitan statistical areas based on July 1, 2006 population estimates". Meaning that these are the latest (as of April 5th of this year) official population estimates in the US according to the golden standard of measuring the United States population the ever coveted MSA. Try as you may do deny it, Columbia's MSA (not CSA) according to the United States Census Bureau is officially 703,771 I don't think it gets any more self explanitory than that? That number is excluding Newberry County which is in Columbia's CSA. Charlottes official MSA population according to the census is 1,583,016. Again it is a number directly from the census. Why is that so hard to believe?

MSA Population (2006)

Columbia, SC: 703,771 (69th)
Charlotte, NC: 1,583,016 (36th)

CSA Population (2006)

Columbia, SC: 741,553 (64th)
Charlotte, NC: 2,191,604 (23rd)

Why is it legit for the CSA to represent Charlotte but not Columbia? I don't understand your argument? Anyways I wasn't using CSA to reflect either cities population I was using both cities MSA to represent its metro population. And if you wanted to do an even more accurate representation of a city's metro then I would suggest using the Urban Area (UA) population. That would make Columbia, and Charlottes population even closer.

[Akhenaton06]

I guess moedog doesn't realize that Charlotte's CSA also contains vastly rural counties like Chester County. Heck, Charlotte's MSA contains Anson County, which is also quite rural and losing population. The Census Bureau uses the same standard for both MSAs (25% commuting threshold) and CSAs (15% commuting threshold); it isn't making an exception for Columbia.

Besides, everyone knows that Charlotte is significantly larger than Columbia, so really, what's the fuss about? No one ever disputed that.

I'm not sure what definition you're talking about as the "more traditional" definition, nor did you attempt to give that definition, but the Census Bureau's MSA/CSA designation is the only official one, and it places Charlotte's MSA population at 1.5 million and Columbia's at just over 700,000. You really need to quote some sources. Me and sandlapper have been doing just that, but you just throw out figures and expect someone to take your word at it.

And Orangeburg is not its own metro area; it's a micropolitan area, which is different. Sumter, however, is its own metro area.

[moedog]

Well at least I'm glad you revised your original results, in which you compared the Columbia CSA population to the Charlotte MSA. The fact is many demographers have objected to both of these definitions of US metro areas. That is why I referred to the "traditional" definitions of the two metro areas. In the case of Charlotte that included Mecklenburg, Gaston, Union, Cabarrus, Rowan, Lincoln, and York. For Columbia that included Richland and Lexington. I am well aware that the COG for the Columbia area has long wished for the counties of Kershaw, Fairfield, and Calhoun to be included: Obviously that request has been granted and accounts for the difference between your figures and mine for the Columbia MSA. On the other hand, the size of Charlotte's MSA suffered a severe setback when the census bureau mysteriously cut Rowan (population 120,000) and Lincoln (population 60,000) Counties from the MSA. Both counties had been part of the Charlotte MSA for at least 20 years. And yes they ADDED poor, declining, Anson Co. to the MSA, a move no one expected or could justify. And of course, the census has always refused to add Iredell County (140,000 and one of the fastest growing in the Charlotte region) or Lancaster Co. (population 63,000) to the Charlotte MSA. I live 2 miles from the Charlotte city limits and 3 miles from one of the largest commercial developments in the Charlotte region, Ballantyne, but am outside the Charlotte MSA. OTOH, if I lived in, for example, Bethune (60 miles from downtown Cola) or Fort Motte (30 miles) I would still be in the Columbia MSA. The fact is metro definitions have become a political football, partly because many federal programs are available only to metro areas, and rural counties want a piece of that action. It would seem that in the Carolinas, the census bureau has largely succeeded in putting virtually every county in some type of metro area. I'm not sure of Chesterfield Co. SC---could it be possible they somehow lost out? If so, perhaps they could be put in the Cola CSA (or maybe they already are, even though they are in the Charlotte media market). And going back to Anson County---I wonder why they weren't put into the immediately adjacent (and huge) Rockingham metro? And by the way, Orangeburg was listed as a metro area in the original list, along with the big cities of Dillon, Walterboro, and Bennettsville, all now metro areas. I have explained the reasons for my original conclusions--as you can see, I have not made up anything, nor have I misunderstood the statistics. I'm out of here.

[sandlapper]

I never changed my original results or statement. Infact you were the one who changed your original argument of Columbia having a MSA popoulation of "560K" (as evidenced below) of Columbia's MSA population, and never provided any sources. My first post as did the rest only included both Columbia and Charlotte’s MSA populations. That was it.

My original post:

Originally Posted by sandlapper

Okay slow down with the defining metro populations there. Dont list Charlotte's CSA population and pass it off as its true metro, and list Columbia's metro from I'm not sure what year that was 560,000 as of 2007? Where did that come from? Anyway both cities metro area population according to the census are as follows:

Columbia 703,771 (2006)

Charlotte 1,583,016 (2006)

No offense or malice towards you but that's just one of my pet peeves.

Your original response:

Originally Posted by moedog

Ha Ha---Columbia's metro population 706,000? That's quite a stretch---not even if you included Sumter and Orangeburg!!!! 560k is the correct figure. OTOH, Charlotte's metro is estimated at 1,850,000 and is growing by about 85,000 a year, so it probably will be over 2,000,000 by 2010. Yes, there is a huge difference in the sizes of the two cities...

I followed with and provided a source:

Originally Posted by sandlapper

Well moedog, I guess the jokes on you then because it is quite readily accessable information that Columbia's metro is indeed 703,771. Heck even USA today published this information ( I have the article right in front of me Thursday April 5th 2007 in USA Today) from the US census Bureau that most anyone with a computer may access. For example I just googled Columbia, SC metro population 703,771 and found this link http://mcdc2.missouri.edu/data/popes...ts_uscbsas.pdf not hard. But everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess?

Originally Posted by sandlapper

And then there is this link from the actual census bureau that once again confirms what they have already concluded. http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...b07-51tbl2.pdf Columbia is #69 here.

Regardless population has nothing to do with whether or not a city is the right place for someone. Visit see what each place offers and make the decision based on what works best!

You followed with:

Originally Posted by moedog

Are you kidding? You continue to quote two DIFFERENT measures of metro areas when comparing Charlotte and Columbia. For Columbia you use CSA which is a new US Census term which takes in metro areas plus nearby rural areas. Can you sit, with a straight face, and tell me Newberry is a part of the Columbia metro area? Please, Sumter or Orangeburg would have made more sense (and according to this chart both are their own "metro" areas, and both are losing population). For Charlotte, you use figures for MSA, a much more restricted area which does not even include many close-in highly populated areas. But ok, if you want to compare apples to apples---the CSA population of the Columbia metro is 760,000 and the CSA population of the Charlotte metro is 2,194,000 which I believe is a sizable difference---using the same definition, Columbia has grown by 8.5% between 2000-2006 while Charlotte has grown by 15.5%, one of the highest of any large city in the country. The more traditional definition of metro areas, however, would be Charlotte 1,850,000 and Columbia 630,000, as I mentioned originally. Using either definition, Charlotte is almost three times as populous as Columbia.

Sorry if that upset you I can only go by my sources (ie Census Bureau)

[Akhenaton06]

Yeah, it's like the guy has issues with the Census Bureau and is taking it out on us! We're only the messengers; nobody here set the guidelines for MSA/CSA formation. We're merely reporting the statistics as they exist, and not making it all up as we go along. The Census Bureau revised the MSA/CSA designations well over four years ago, but we're still relying on those statistics, which you call the "traditional" statistics? Come on moedog, you're the one being disingenous here and you've done nothing but hijack the thread based on a very minor point.

Moedog also stated:

And by the way, Orangeburg was listed as a metro area in the original list, along with the big cities of Dillon, Walterboro, and Bennettsville, all now metro areas.

Understand, I am a native of Orangeburg, and never do I recall it being its own metro area and I tend to keep up with stuff like this. If you can provide that source, I'd love to see it. Presently, it is considered a MICROpolitan statistical area, which is different from a METROpolitan statistical area. The other cities you listed also fall into that category, and I challenge you to provide the source that lists them as METROPOLITAN areas.

[moedog]

Ok, I don't feel like spending any more time on this, but since I've basically been called a liar---here are my sources. My original figures came from the Time Almanac, 2004 edition. When all of that was called into question, I used the webpage cited by Akhenaton06 in this very thread----www.demographia.com/db-metric2004.pdf. You will notice that all of the small towns I listed as being metro areas most certainly were listed on this source. Again, the figures on that site, which obviously reflect new definitions for metro areas, have been quoted by others but, as I pointed out, in some cases MSA populations were compared to CSA populations. The figures for the "traditional" definition metro areas were my own but you will find they are correct if check them with census figures for the counties I listed. The figure of 1,850,000 is cited often by the Charlotte Observer. Yes, I do think the census bureau is way off base in the way they define metro areas---but I am hardly alone in that belief---they have been discussed at length in the Charlotte and other media And I certainly have every right to express those beliefs on this forum without the flaming I have recieved today. To say that the Charlotte metro is a "little bit bigger" than the Columbia metro is way off base and you know it. To give that impression to readers who may have never been to either city is misinformation which should be corrected---thusly, I in no way hijacked this thread. Now, I am finished with this discussion.

[Akhenaton06]

Originally Posted by moedog

To say that the Charlotte metro is a "little bit bigger" than the Columbia metro is way off base and you know it.

If that was your point, you could have just as easily proven that with the present official Census Bureau figures; even though you question the method of how MSAs and CSAs are assessed (which is beyond the scope of this topic and forum), the figures as they are already show that Charlotte's metro area population is over twice the size of Columbia's--more than a "little bit bigger." At least the MSA/CSA methodology is applied the same way to every metro area, so it doesn't put one metro at a disadvantage in relation to the other in the context of this discussion; in other words, it is a constant and holds everything equal. There was absolutely no need to cite outdated figures when you know everyone wasn't on the same page, and on top of that to attempt to pass them off as official figures. That was totally disingenous of you.

And Demographia.com makes a mistake when it lists those smaller towns under the metropolitan designation (I actually think they were listed in the CSA category); the U.S. Census Bureau defines them as micropolitan areas, so I see where you might have been mislead about that.

[cutejanelle1]

wow, give moedog a break... He said that he thought his info was okay... Relax! Get back on topic!

[waccamatt]

I think Moedog obviously has some issues with Columbia and with using accurate figures. If he visited the Columbia metro area he would realize that Columbia has grown to the extent of spilling over into the adjacent counties besides Lexington. The urbanization from Columbia to Camden is nearly continuous and the parts of Fairfield and Calhoun Counties closest to Richland are certainly experiencing the most growth. Saluda County is the biggest stretch, but it only has 19,000 people and it is most closely tied to Lexington County.

[gsupstate]

Originally Posted by Akhenaton06

I live in the Charlotte metro area (actually work in the city itself) and I'm intimately familiar with Columbia, visiting often, so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to a knowledgeable, objective comparison between the two cities.

Hope your move from Upstate New York was easy. Glad you found a job in Charlotte and a home in Rock Hill. Excellent decision.