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The key, there, is "as of a year ago". The Democratic Party does not have a higher moral ground, on this issue, because they spent four years claiming President Trump was illegitimate. It has become common practice, over the last twenty years, to claim the opposing president is illegitimate. Both parties are guilty of this. And, I am not excusing President Trump's actions, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalMilford
If not for Trump this lie about fraud doesn't move beyond the fringe. The Republican party is broken. There's no equivalency between this and "hanging chads." There's no equivalency between this and support for defunding the police.
I agree. And, without Ms. Clinton, the disproven Russian collusion with then-candidate Donald Trump would not have moved past the fringe, too.
There is an equivalency between "fraudulent" mail-in ballots, hanging chads, "birtherism", and Russian collusion, as all four provide the mechanism to claim illegitimacy. One is not better or worse than another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalMilford
It's a sad state of affairs for those who are truly sane Republicans-- and I think there are more here in Connecticut than in most other places-- however, the sane are not steering the ship in the Republican Party. I don't see AOC in an important leadership position. I don't see her advancing to the Senate-- let alone the Presidency.
President Trump is not steering the Republican Party correctly and President Biden is not steering the Democratic Party correctly, either. Both parties are embracing their extremes. The Republican Party needs another Ronald Reagan/Dwight Eisenhower and the Democratic Party needs another Bill Clinton/a competent Jimmy Carter.
(I mean all of the following in the nicest way possible!)
Jay, I know you are smarter than this, because your posts are usually quite rational and I agree with almost all of them.
But, the bolded sentence is nothing short of hypocrisy, because it cannot be true. And, if it were true, then you should be able to differentiate between an extremist Republican and a normal Republican, while not lumping them together, and voting accordingly. Your stance, also, ignores the extremists in the Democratic Party, of which there are just as many as in the Republican Party.
Each opposition party, of the last twenty years, has claimed that the president is illegitimate in some way. Some in the Democratic Party spent eight years claiming George Bush was an illegitimate president because of hanging chads. Some in the Republican Party spent eight years claiming Barack Obama was an illegitimate president due to 'birtherism'. Some in the Democratic Party spent four years claiming Donald Trump was an illegitimate president due to disproven Russian collusion. And, some in the Republican Party have spent the last two years claiming Joe Biden is an illegitimate president due to "fraudulent" mail-in ballots. That does not make it right, but that is the reality of the situation.
To tie this back to Connecticut to stay on the topic of the thread, if Connecticut Republicans are talking about the issues that matter most to you, and Connecticut Democrats are not, why would you not vote for Connecticut Republicans? And, if your justification is the national party and its problems, then the reality is that the issues you claim to care about actually do not matter much, to you. That may be harsh, but it is the truth.
Thanks for the compliment (I think). Maybe if the Republicans had nominated a good candidate like Erin Stewart or a Charlie Baker, I’d consider it. But they nominated Bob Stefanowski yet again and Lenora Levy. Neither will get my vote anyway.
In 2018 Stefanowski pandered to ignorant voters with his call to eliminate the Income Tax, the largest source of revenue for the state. That was impossible without totally decimating the state. To me that was a lie to get votes and that shows a lack of integrity. This time around Stefanowski has backed off on complete elimination but he still talks about cutting the budget but has been cagey about saying what he will cut. He also hasn’t said much, if anything about paying down our pension obligations. That doesn’t sit well with me.
Lenora Levy is a Trumper so that completely eliminates her from anything. Trump is a criminal and a traitor. He broke his oath to uphold the US Constitution. He incited violence and the insurrectionists on January 6th and pandered to them when he said “We love you. You’re very special” in his halfhearted appeal for them to leave the Capitol. I could go on and on about him and why I believe he belongs in prison. Anyone who publicly supports him and his lies and crimes and hasn’t supported the January 6th Commission investigation is a traitor to me as well. So Levy is a BIG no.
To add to the above is the long line of Republicans who failed to support the January 6th Commission. Why don’t they want the truth to be revealed and those responsible held accountable? There is no excuse for that.
Then there’s the three Republican appointed Supreme Court Justices who swore in the Confirmation Hearings that they’d respect past courts decisions on Rowe verses Wade. They lied.
There is also a whole line of Republicans who refused to hear Obama’s Supreme Court nomination because it was too close (7 months) to the election yet when Justice Ginsberg died they felt that 7 weeks was sufficient to cram in and approve their nominee. That means they are lying hypocrites.
As with Trump, I could go on and on but why is it that the Republican Party keeps lying and does things that show they have no integrity or respect for democracy and the US Constitution?
I’m fed up and have grown to truly hate the party and it’s leaders. That’s why they aren’t getting my vote this year. I think objectively that’s good enough reason. Don’t you? If not, why don’t you think that? Isn’t our democracy and Constitution more important than party loyalty?
I’m sorry but no party has gone to the extreme of being on the verge of overthrowing our democracy like the Republicans have over the past two years. That’s why it’s VERY different from the past. You are blind if you don’t see that. Jay
Last edited by JayCT; 10-20-2022 at 07:06 PM..
Reason: Added last paragraph
The key, there, is "as of a year ago". The Democratic Party does not have a higher moral ground, on this issue, because they spent four years claiming President Trump was illegitimate. It has become common practice, over the last twenty years, to claim the opposing president is illegitimate. Both parties are guilty of this. And, I am not excusing President Trump's actions, either.
HRC conceded to Trump within 24 hours of the polls closing. On the other hand, Trump staged an attempted coup and continues to claim that the election was stolen. He had thousands of his minions attack congress to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. He's committed numerous felonies in trying to pressure state officials to "find" votes.
It is the very definition of false equivalency. The Democratic Party has its problem with extremists, but, sorry, there is no correspondence here.
I keep seeing you post buzz phrases like “false equivalency” and “strawman argument”, but you don’t seem to appropriately reply with anything of substance other than, essentially, “the Republican Party is extreme”, “Trump!”, “broken!”. Sort of loses credibility, especially when some posters here fail to recognize how horrifically extreme the Democratic Party has gone, as well.
The Dems are responsible in Ct for the violent juvenile crime, as they want Junior the Gang Banger coddled, conviction after conviction.
HRC conceded to Trump within 24 hours of the polls closing. On the other hand, Trump staged an attempted coup and continues to claim that the election was stolen. He had thousands of his minions attack congress to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. He's committed numerous felonies in trying to pressure state officials to "find" votes.
It is the very definition of false equivalency. The Democratic Party has its problem with extremists, but, sorry, there is no correspondence here.
I agree. It’s the very survival of our democracy and the US Constitution verses the political ambitions of one party and its criminal leader. Jay
HRC conceded to Trump within 24 hours of the polls closing. On the other hand, Trump staged an attempted coup and continues to claim that the election was stolen. .
Both created dangerous precedents. HRC the first clear loser (with all networks calling, a multiple state margin of error, no 2000 Fl decides by under 600 votes issue) to go to bed w/o conceding Election Night. Like 1/6, that was shameful. Of course, after all that chardonnay, was she in shape to concede?
Last edited by JayCT; 10-21-2022 at 09:24 AM..
Reason: Removed flame comment
Thanks for the compliment (I think). Maybe if the Republicans had nominated a good candidate like Erin Stewart or a Charlie Baker, I’d consider it. But they nominated Bob Stefanowski yet again and Lenora Levy. Neither will get my vote anyway.
In 2018 Stefanowski pandered to ignorant voters with his call to eliminate the Income Tax, the largest source of revenue for the state. That was impossible without totally decimating the state. To me that was a lie to get votes and that shows a lack of integrity. This time around Stefanowski has backed off on complete elimination but he still talks about cutting the budget but has been cagey about saying what he will cut. He also hasn’t said much, if anything about paying down our pension obligations. That doesn’t sit well with me.
Lenora Levy is a Trumper so that completely eliminates her from anything. Trump is a criminal and a traitor. He broke his oath to uphold the US Constitution. He incited violence and the insurrectionists on January 6th and pandered to them when he said “We love you. You’re very special” in his halfhearted appeal for them to leave the Capitol. I could go on and on about him and why I believe he belongs in prison. Anyone who publicly supports him and his lies and crimes and hasn’t supported the January 6th Commission investigation is a traitor to me as well. So Levy is a BIG no.
I am not going to disagree with anything above. And, yes, that was a compliment. I almost always agree with your posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCT
To add to the above is the long line of Republicans who failed to support the January 6th Commission. Why don’t they want the truth to be revealed and those responsible held accountable? There is no excuse for that.
I thought it was a mistake for the Republican Party to not take the January 6th Committee seriously, at least to provide a counterbalance, so that it resembles a committee and not a trial with a pre-determined outcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCT
Then there’s the three Republican appointed Supreme Court Justices who swore in the Confirmation Hearings that they’d respect past courts decisions on Rowe verses Wade. They lied.
This is completely false. Justices Barrett, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh did not ever state they would not rule in favor of overturning Roe v Wade. They stated they would review any case brought to them and make a judgement based on the Constitution, which they did. It is wrong for a judicial nominee to prejudge a case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCT
There is also a whole line of Republicans who refused to hear Obama’s Supreme Court nomination because it was too close (7 months) to the election yet when Justice Ginsberg died they felt that 7 weeks was sufficient to cram in and approve their nominee. That means they are lying hypocrites.
I, too, thought it was a mistake for the Republicans to not give Mr. Garland a hearing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCT
As with Trump, I could go on and on but why is it that the Republican Party keeps lying and does things that show they have no integrity or respect for democracy and the US Constitution?
What is the Republican Party lying about? Neither party has integrity. The only difference is the way it is portrayed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCT
I’m fed up and have grown to truly hate the party and it’s leaders. That’s why they aren’t getting my vote this year. I think objectively that’s good enough reason. Don’t you? If not, why don’t you think that? Isn’t our democracy and Constitution more important than party loyalty?
No, that is enough to not like the leaders of a party. Individual candidates should be judged by their merits and policy positions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCT
I’m sorry but no party has gone to the extreme of being on the verge of overthrowing our democracy like the Republicans have over the past two years. That’s why it’s VERY different from the past. You are blind if you don’t see that. Jay
How have Republicans been "overthrowing democracy" over the last two years? Because, if I remember right, the Democratic Party has been the one calling for overturning the filibuster to pass unpopular bills and stacking the Supreme Court.
If that is your standard for overthrowing democracy, then you should be upset with both parties, not just one. Both parties leave much to be desired.
I know I opened a can of worms with my rant about the Republicans but let’s not turn this thread into an off topic debate. I will try to respect your opinions but I can’t allow this thread to become a battleground either. Remember to be respectful of others. You can state your opinion and why but not attack other posters in the process. JayCT, Moderator
How have Republicans been "overthrowing democracy" over the last two years? Because, if I remember right, the Democratic Party has been the one calling for overturning the filibuster to pass unpopular bills and stacking the Supreme Court.
If that is your standard for overthrowing democracy, then you should be upset with both parties, not just one. Both parties leave much to be desired.
Do both parties leave a lot to be desired? Yeah, I'm with you. My agreement ends there.
The filibuster, for better or worse, prevents a majority party from passing laws. Eliminating it makes for a MORE democratic system. With the system we have, we can have (and have had) effectively minority rule. A minority party, with the Senate representing 20 million fewer voters, prevented a democratically elected president from appoints a justice to SCOTUS. We have SCOTUS with justices appointed by a President who lost the popular vote and a Senate that represented 45% of the population.
You can argue about whether or not thats a good system. For a variety of reasons, it would be a terrible idea for the Dems to do it. And guess what? In spite of the hot air about court backing and eliminating the filibuster, it hasn't happened. To pack the SCOTUS, you would need a majority. You can say the Democrats are attacking Separation of Powers, but you can't say it's not democratic. Frankly, it's completely constitutional. Short sighted and wrong headed? Maybe. But it's perfectly democratic and constitutional.
On the other hand, you have a party with a defeated president tried to overthrow an election with party the either turned a blind eye or supported the attempt.
But Hillary didn't conceded that night and that's somehow in the same ballpark. Right.
I am not going to disagree with anything above. And, yes, that was a compliment. I almost always agree with your posts.
I thought it was a mistake for the Republican Party to not take the January 6th Committee seriously, at least to provide a counterbalance, so that it resembles a committee and not a trial with a pre-determined outcome.
This is completely false. Justices Barrett, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh did not ever state they would not rule in favor of overturning Roe v Wade. They stated they would review any case brought to them and make a judgement based on the Constitution, which they did. It is wrong for a judicial nominee to prejudge a case.
I, too, thought it was a mistake for the Republicans to not give Mr. Garland a hearing.
What is the Republican Party lying about? Neither party has integrity. The only difference is the way it is portrayed.
No, that is enough to not like the leaders of a party. Individual candidates should be judged by their merits and policy positions.
How have Republicans been "overthrowing democracy" over the last two years? Because, if I remember right, the Democratic Party has been the one calling for overturning the filibuster to pass unpopular bills and stacking the Supreme Court.
If that is your standard for overthrowing democracy, then you should be upset with both parties, not just one. Both parties leave much to be desired.
Really? You’re going to make me respond when I just asked not to turn this into a battleground. I guess I must respond to explain. I’ll try to keep it simple.
You are right that both parties are bad, and I’ve said that multiple times here BUT the Republican Party has clearly crossed the line in so many areas. It’s disgusting.
The three Republican Justices said that they would respect past court decisions including Roe verses Wade. They did not do that when they voted to overturn a 50 year old ruling. To me that means they lied.
Trump keeps insisting that the election was rigged without producing any shred of evidence to support that. His actions on and leading up to January 6, 2021 were despicable and goes against his oath to uphold the Constitution. That’s treason. Any Republican that does not publicly disavow this and what happened on January 6th is supporting it and is also breaking their oath.
A few Democrats talk about eliminating the filibuster and stacking the Supreme Court but that doesn’t mean they all do and support it. The fact that they have not attempted to do either proves not all Democrats support these. Even if they did all support both these, that would not destroy our democracy. Our government would still be able to operate as a democracy. Jay
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