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The issue isn't the murder rate or anything related to conceal carry, it is the mentality displayed by too many that there is some unfettered right to use lethal force to defend oneself against any imaginary threat, hence my reference to "stand your ground," a defense that is being used in ways never imagined and contrary to the intent of those who passed the law.
I don't find the shooting itself to be all that remarkable, what struck me was Mr. Doyle's sense of utter self-righteousness. He actually not only told the 911 operator that he he was, "cocked, locked and ready to go," and that he was going to "shoot the victim in the head" once he got home, but that he also would think that he had the right to hold Mrs. Gonzalez and her children at gun point until police arrived!
That is an amazing set of presumptions on the part of Mr. Doyle.
And without stand your ground laws he would not do that ? Seems like his ability to think rationally was way off.
I don't know how SYG laws are implemented in Florida. There was huge wave of mis- and dis-information from both sides on just how these laws worked during Zimmerman's case (which is when the article you link to seems to have been written); however Zimmerman case was never really about SYG. The general concept of SYG is that you're not legally required to flee when attacked, but can use force to protect your life. Except that Zimmerman was laying on his back with Martin straddling him and pounding his head into the sidewalk, so he couldn't choose to flee anyway.
I did read about SYG being used to defend drug dealers who shot other drug dealers when attacked (or claiming they were attacked). However, again, even without SYG, assuming the weapon used was legally owned, the state must prove that the defendant had an opportunity to flee yet chose not to. If I am standing on a street corner "minding my business" and someone comes up to me and pulls a gun, I can't flee without getting shot. And there's no law on the books that states you have to allow yourself to be shot. So SYG may be the excuse they use now, but I don't know how it changes things in these cases; it should be a specific case in which the defendant had the opportunity to flee yet chose to shoot back, in which SYG would make a difference. (I am not a lawyer, just thinking out loud..)
If the info in the article is correct, it seems the problem is not the SYG law itself, but the state of Florida's justice system.
When I took my CPL license class in Michigan, it was made extremely clear that shooting someone in the back, or at longer distance, is a guaranteed murder sentence. As is being the one who initiated the confrontation. And MI has SYG law. The whole idea of SYG, as I said, is that you don't have a duty to retreat when attacked. It is not a license to kill indiscriminately.
Last edited by Ummagumma; 07-26-2015 at 11:11 PM..
Mental disorders, plus for some reason today, stress seems to be at an all time high.
Lets not forget that our society has significantly turned away from religion, and has turned very violent in the entertainment industry. Between video games, TV, movies and the like with constant images of people being slaughtered, many have become desensitized and indifferent to human life and compassion.
I certainly see why this guy felt threatened with some nut case following him home and parking in front of his house. However once the threat was mitigated with the firearm involved, he should have just held the guy at gunpoint like he did with the family, and wait for police to arrive. Problem solved, without ruining both peoples lives.
I don't find the shooting itself to be all that remarkable, what struck me was Mr. Doyle's sense of utter self-righteousness. He actually not only told the 911 operator that he he was, "cocked, locked and ready to go," and that he was going to "shoot the victim in the head" once he got home, but that he also would think that he had the right to hold Mrs. Gonzalez and her children at gun point until police arrived!
You assume Ms. Gonzalez and her children were passive bystanders to the alleged harassment of Mr. Doyle.
Some years ago I was driving north on the Pacific Coast Highway on a not-well-frequented stretch, when a white sports car driven by a young woman tried to force me off the road. I reached for my cellphone and found there's no service in that location. (There still isn't, by the way.)
What I did see was that there was a young man in the passenger seat and they were both laughing and pointing, him grabbing at the steering wheel and trying to get the car to swerve into me again.
For all we know the entire Gonzalez family thought this was great sport...up until the point Gonzalez pere took three bullets in the back.
There is a weekly road rage shooting in FL? Really?
Are there also weekly road rage shooting in Texas? If not, then isn't it reasonable to think it is people and not guns responsible?
Seems kind of strange that guns are always blamed, never the people. Typical of the liberal mindset, never blame anyone for anything, always blame some thing and all because it is easier and you don't have to blame the liberal policies and failures in the liberal experiments in education for many of the ills in this country.
Nah, don't blame people, why...that would mean someone is responsible and not something.
How nice it must be to only take responsibility for something when it comes to Obama and taking credit for accomplishing things. For everything else, blame some thing.
Quote:
I have no problem with someone owning a gun, but your comment is like saying everyone who has a driver's license is a good driver.
The poster you quoted was actually blaming people and not the guns. Are you so angry that you couldn't see that?
You assume Ms. Gonzalez and her children were passive bystanders to the alleged harassment of Mr. Doyle.
Some years ago I was driving north on the Pacific Coast Highway on a not-well-frequented stretch, when a white sports car driven by a young woman tried to force me off the road. I reached for my cellphone and found there's no service in that location. (There still isn't, by the way.)
What I did see was that there was a young man in the passenger seat and they were both laughing and pointing, him grabbing at the steering wheel and trying to get the car to swerve into me again.
For all we know the entire Gonzalez family thought this was great sport...up until the point Gonzalez pere took three bullets in the back.
We don't even know the age of the kids but you are making assumptions about there involvement.
Quote:
"We're going on home, we're going home, I guess we're not," said Gonzalez's wife on the recording.
She was trying to get him to go home but couldn't change his mind.
This doesn't sound like a wife who, "thought this was great sport".
Get real, 40 years ago, there was JROTC in high schools, kids still got 22s for Birthdays and Christmas (and there was a Christmas allowed) and a lot more.
Now you say EVERYBODY (read your own post) and their mother is carrying a piece. Now prove that and don't hide behind some literary embellishment or slight exaggeration, you know that isn't true and so does everyone else.
If you could come even close to making a post with a shred of truth in it, you might have a point, as it is nothing you've said so far, nothing - is true or even close to it.
Drink less, think more.
They still have JROTC in high schools, but they don't give them guns. Did they used to, at school? That doesn't sound right to me
There is a weekly road rage shooting in FL? Really?
Are there also weekly road rage shooting in Texas? If not, then isn't it reasonable to think it is people and not guns responsible?
Seems kind of strange that guns are always blamed, never the people. Typical of the liberal mindset, never blame anyone for anything, always blame some thing and all because it is easier and you don't have to blame the liberal policies and failures in the liberal experiments in education for many of the ills in this country.
Nah, don't blame people, why...that would mean someone is responsible and not something.
How nice it must be to only take responsibility for something when it comes to Obama and taking credit for accomplishing things. For everything else, blame some thing.
What post did you read? In the post I read, he DID blame the people. He called them hotheads, nutjobs, and idiots, in several places. How do you get from that that he is blaming the guns and not the people?
And without stand your ground laws he would not do that ? Seems like his ability to think rationally was way off.
I don't know how SYG laws are implemented in Florida. There was huge wave of mis- and dis-information from both sides on just how these laws worked during Zimmerman's case (which is when the article you link to seems to have been written); however Zimmerman case was never really about SYG. The general concept of SYG is that you're not legally required to flee when attacked, but can use force to protect your life. Except that Zimmerman was laying on his back with Martin straddling him and pounding his head into the sidewalk, so he couldn't choose to flee anyway.
I did read about SYG being used to defend drug dealers who shot other drug dealers when attacked (or claiming they were attacked). However, again, even without SYG, assuming the weapon used was legally owned, the state must prove that the defendant had an opportunity to flee yet chose not to. If I am standing on a street corner "minding my business" and someone comes up to me and pulls a gun, I can't flee without getting shot. And there's no law on the books that states you have to allow yourself to be shot. So SYG may be the excuse they use now, but I don't know how it changes things in these cases; it should be a specific case in which the defendant had the opportunity to flee yet chose to shoot back, in which SYG would make a difference. (I am not a lawyer, just thinking out loud..)
If the info in the article is correct, it seems the problem is not the SYG law itself, but the state of Florida's justice system.
When I took my CPL license class in Michigan, it was made extremely clear that shooting someone in the back, or at longer distance, is a guaranteed murder sentence. As is being the one who initiated the confrontation. And MI has SYG law. The whole idea of SYG, as I said, is that you don't have a duty to retreat when attacked. It is not a license to kill indiscriminately.
I think the point was that SYG gives some a sense that they have the right to shoot people, that it gives the impression that its within the law. The way this guy talked to the cop, he certainly did seem to believe he was within his rights.
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