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You sound like the type of person that justifies the existence of Search and Rescue groups.
Yes, in the case of exploration of national forests/national parks, complete reliance on technology is not only wrong, but absolutely stupid.
Even if GPS systems were reliable in these areas, paper maps give way more information about roads than GPS would ever be able to. GPS will send you down "a road"- a paper map will be able to show you whether that road is maintained or not, and generally will give one a better overview of their path through these areas. For example, if the GPS is sending you down a path that leads you to a road that is numbered in the 4-digits, it's probably not a very good idea to follow it. In other words, one's brain must be engaged when driving in these areas.
IMO, if one "can't figure out maps", they should not be driving in these areas. But, then again, I wouldn't want the SAR people to be out of a job....
No, I am the type that expects people to do their job RIGHT instead of half-azzing it and then expecting everyone else to compensate for their not doing it right in the first place.
Of course a GPS can give just as much information as a paper map, in fact I think they sell "hiking GPS" units and such for that specific reason (and to that end I WOULD put the onus on the ones exploring to research into that ahead of time). I mean, please, there is NO WAY that a GPS couldn't contain all of that information, they just apparently don't bother to DO so (or again one hasn't researched what hiking GPS units and such exist and what they can do). If they haven't bothered to do so, they SHOULD, that is what I'm saying. We've seen what Waze can do, the way that people can warn you of a wreck and everyone who is a Waze user sees it in real time, we've seen how Google Maps can pull up any business and tell you when their hours of operation are, do not tell me that a GPS can't contain detailed information about road closings and such, of course they can, and in a place that's as "high profile" as the Grand Canyon there's enough visitor-ship to justify the trouble in doing it.
A lot of the time that's the trouble to me, they don't do enough to make things CLEAR and OBVIOUS to people. I once was driving through New Mexico heading west towards Arizona, I was at a given road I don't recall the number but it had 2 choices, you could turn left or right and one would send you east one would send you west, which was what I needed. Amazingly enough, they didn't even bother to tell you which was east and which was west, something I'd never seen before nor have I seen it since. That's ridiculous, assuming the road is (say) I-40 you can't afford the extra ink to put a W or E on the end so it says "<----I-40 W ----->I-40E?" are you kidding me? I'm supposed to pull out a compass and figure it out myself (this was in the 90s when you didn't have GPS units or compasses built into phones) because you're too lazy and cheap to add an E and a W on your sign? Are you kidding me?
That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
Again, I am told that you can electronic detailed "hiking GPS" units either stand-alone or in a smartphone and even the smartphone versions are set up to work offline without the need for anything other than a satellite signal. To the extent that one is saying it wouldn't be a bad idea to invest in those as well, I'm fine with that. I am NOT fine with it being the case that this road which was closed was NOT designated as such in the GPS unit itself if this was known information. With all the detail in there, you meet to tell me they couldn't set it to where the GPS would know that the road had "seasons" and then to simply match the current date-time with the info stored locally and say "oops, don't go down THAT road?" OF COURSE they can. DO IT.
Of course a GPS can give just as much information as a paper map, in fact I think they sell "hiking GPS" units and such for that specific reason (and to that end I WOULD put the onus on the ones exploring to research into that ahead of time). I mean, please, there is NO WAY that a GPS couldn't contain all of that information, they just apparently don't bother to DO so (or again one hasn't researched what hiking GPS units and such exist and what they can do). If they haven't bothered to do so, they SHOULD, that is what I'm saying. We've seen what Waze can do, the way that people can warn you of a wreck and everyone who is a Waze user sees it in real time, we've seen how Google Maps can pull up any business and tell you when their hours of operation are, do not tell me that a GPS can't contain detailed information about road closings and such, of course they can, and in a place that's as "high profile" as the Grand Canyon there's enough visitor-ship to justify the trouble in doing it.
Do you have any experience driving on national forest service roads? At all?
Whether electronically, or on paper, the ability to actually be able to read a map (and understand it) is essential.
And in terms of "the trouble" in providing detailed information in GPS, I'm sure you're aware of how vast these expanses are. They do have, on the NFS websites, a place where visitors can report impassable roads and other conditions so that others can see it. Other than that, I simply don't see the feasibility of putting in this sort of real-time information.
Though, even if the information is somehow there, obviously there are still going to be people who ignore "closed" signs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyguylh
A lot of the time that's the trouble to me, they don't do enough to make things CLEAR and OBVIOUS to people.
Like the "closed" signs at the north rim of the Grand Canyon this time of year?
Perhaps if they really wanted to make a good GPS system, they'd set an ear-piercing alarm when someone is stupid enough to ignore the "road closed" signs?
You sound like the type of person that justifies the existence of Search and Rescue groups.
You should have heard him retelling his story about deciding to go on a joyride in his 2WD SUV during the Texas floods. And then wondered how he was gonna get his car out of the muck that reached over the wheel wells of his vehicle.
I've never really understood this idea that one is doing wrong to "depend on technology."
It's simple: technology fails. Not a big deal in the city, where you always have other people around for backup. But it's a VERY big deal in remote areas, where such a failure can get you seriously injured or even killed.
A GPS relies on electronics and batteries. Batteries can run out of power, and electronics can fail suddenly without any prior warning. The device can break if dropped or submerged in water. And there are situations (such as inside deep, narrow canyons, or under a heavy leaf canopy) where it may not be able to pick up the satellite signals and therefore can't give you any positional information. Is a GPS handy to have? Yes, very. But it's a supplement to a map and compass, not a substitute for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyguylh
I'm directionally challenged, it's how God made me I suppose. Does that mean I should never go anywhere or that I should, in the year 2016, have to practically attend a 4 year university to figure maps out?
It means some places (remote, very rural areas) are off-limits to you if you value your safety (unless you go there with a group that includes other people who CAN read maps). Because it's simply not safe to go into those areas without a map and a good compass (and the ability to use them) as a backup in case your GPS fails.
Wilderness is not suburbia. Nature doesn't give a crap about you or your survival. Out there, you're just another animal, and animals die in the wilderness all the time. Most of the people who get in these survival situations (like the couple in the OP, or the Kim family mentioned earlier) are there precisely because they didn't understand that at a gut level, and thus failed to take the necessary precautions needed to stay safe on their trip.
Then make it to where it doesn't fail, or don't make it at all. Period. I'm totally serious. Be close to perfect, or don't even exist period.
OK, that sounds over the top, I know it can't be PERFECT, but I do think sometimes they don't try hard enough. I have often observed that if Toyota or Honda made vending machines and shake machines they wouldn't fail so often. I get irritated because things like vending machines and shake machines it seems like they are ALWAYS breaking and I'm like "what is with these people, can't they make ANYTHING right?" It is amazing how someone like Toyota & Honda can make cars that just go and go and go and go and go but many others everytime you turn around the darned thing needs fixing. Make it RIGHT. (And yes, no cell signals FOR MILES in a place as high profile as the Grand Canyon? No excuse for that, at least on the roads leading up to it. In the canyon itself, OK if it's not feasible, but on the roads leading up to it? Pathetic.)
Yes batteries die and such, but maps can get torn or dropped in water. Me, I lose paper ALL the time, I do much better with electronics. I keep my kids' social security numbers in there and such, things like that. I could get behind electronic maps. I could get behind packing extra "power packs" and cords etc, and yes a paper map as a very very last resort yes.
I'm not saying that one shouldn't make preparations and such, but I am saying that the ones making the devices and such need to do a thorough job insomuch that ok maybe a Garmin Nuvi can't be "live updated" with regards to anything, but it SURE can be configured to where it knows a certain road is "seasonal" and thus avoid it by default, much as it does now with toll roads and such. I think there's a certain "sloppiness" there that should be avoided.
It means some places (remote, very rural areas) are off-limits to you if you value your safety (unless you go there with a group that includes other people who CAN read maps). Because it's simply not safe to go into those areas without a map and a good compass (and the ability to use them) as a backup in case your GPS fails.
My partner and I were having this discussion last night.
I, too, am quite directionally challenged. He has gone to great lengths (and with sometimes quite humorous results) to help me enough so that, if something were to happen when we are out and about in the mountains, I can get to safety/help.
Where we spend a lot of our time, in the Okanogan National Forest here in Washington State, there are a lot of roads that are unmarked (or the markings are hard to see), and literally, from my POV, everything looks pretty much the same. IOW, it would be incredibly easy for me to get lost. He does the vast majority of the non-paved driving, and when he does, I take great care in paying attention to where we are going, and more importantly for the purposes of getting out, where we have been. He points out to me where we are on the paper map on a regular basis, and makes sure that I know how to get out and to the nearest populated area. It's simply what needs to be done for the two of us to be doing what we do safely, and it is something that I would never consider doing alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel
Wilderness is not suburbia. Nature doesn't give a crap about you or your survival. Out there, you're just another animal, and animals die in the wilderness all the time. Most of the people who get in these situations (like the couple in the OP, or the Kim family mentioned earlier) are there precisely because they didn't understand that at a gut level, and thus failed to take the necessary precautions needed to stay safe on their trip.
That just means that the GPS makers need to do it RIGHT. GPS was invented because some people can't figure maps out very well, and I'm one of them, and SO BE IT--in my mind, especially since GPS now exists, I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO figure maps out. It's too much mental work, and I don't care who thinks that's "lazy" or "entitled" or a "Darwin candidate" or any of that. The GPS should WORK RIGHT or it shouldn't be made AT ALL.
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Actually GPS was invented for military and espionage use. Have a cousin who was in Gulf War #1 and he has stories of the GPS unit they used to find correct military targets being kept under lock & key when not in use. The DoD and other US government entities just see benefit in allowing civilians to also use the system.
As for national forest (or equivalent) roads, we've played around with them (have an Outback and wanted to see what the car can do). They're often very poorly signed and, unless you know them like the creases on the palm of your hand, require both a driver and a navigator to make sure you're hitting the correct turnoffs when the area is not covered in snow. Even a moderate snowfall, and I wouldn't want to have to guess what is roadway and what is not unless there are clear tire tracks I can follow.
Actually GPS was invented for military and espionage use. Have a cousin who was in Gulf War #1 and he has stories of the GPS unit they used to find correct military targets being kept under lock & key when not in use. The DoD and other US government entities just see benefit in allowing civilians to also use the system.
Yes, I believe I read that somewhere. I believe President Reagan ordered it after an aircrash where a civilian airplane got lost and ventured into hostile USSR territory and was shot down or the like, he ordered them to deploy GPS so they wouldn't be subject to that same sort of catastrophe again.
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Originally Posted by beachmouse
As for national forest (or equivalent) roads, we've played around with them (have an Outback and wanted to see what the car can do). They're often very poorly signed and, unless you know them like the creases on the palm of your hand, require both a driver and a navigator to make sure you're hitting the correct turnoffs when the area is not covered in snow. Even a moderate snowfall, and I wouldn't want to have to guess what is roadway and what is not unless there are clear tire tracks I can follow.
Yes I've seen that and that also is the sort of thing I'm talking about, faulty design or laziness in making things CLEAR to people. Granted wilderness roads are secluded roads, but if you're going to bother with roads, well then again do it RIGHT. (Also, again, the Grand Canyon may be the wilderness, but it's also a hugely popular wilderness.) Snow can't be helped, but if it's to where you have a hard time making things out even in daylight and even with no snowfall, then it's lazy and/or faulty design.
Besides that I've seen things even in the city that were dumb, such as two separate roads way on the other side of town having the exact same names. Who does that? What kind of nonsense is that to name two separate roads way on the other side of town the exact same names? Where did they get their traffic engineering or street design degree, from a matchbook or a box of Cracker Jacks? Then, on top of that, sometimes the same road will change names simply because it changes direction, but it's the SAME ROAD. Other times the street address numbers on the building are so small you'd have to get a NASA telescope to see them (to me they should be so large they're visible from the moon with the naked eye, almost anyway). That also is nonsense.
Don't make things needlessly difficult, it's one thing for someone to want their hand held and it's another thing to rightly point out that mother nature can't be helped and that the wilderness isn't Disneyland but it's also very reasonable for someone to want the design and such to be to where things are not so murky.
Yes I've seen that and that also is the sort of thing I'm talking about, faulty design or laziness in making things CLEAR to people. Granted wilderness roads are secluded roads, but if you're going to bother with roads, well then again do it RIGHT. (Also, again, the Grand Canyon may be the wilderness, but it's also a hugely popular wilderness.) Snow can't be helped, but if it's to where you have a hard time making things out even in daylight and even with no snowfall, then it's lazy and/or faulty design.
Do you have any idea how big the national forests are, and how little manpower/funding there is available to maintain these roads? Have you ever been in a national forest?
At least in our area, most of the roads are maintained by the logging companies that lease the land. There is no ability otherwise to even run a grader over any more than the very most used roads.
And when a road is rendered impassable due to a washout, landslide or a river rerouting itself, repairs are rarely made. This is not due to "laziness"- it's lack of manpower, or federal lawsuits holding up (and taking away money from) repair work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyguylh
Don't make things needlessly difficult, it's one thing for someone to want their hand held and it's another thing to rightly point out that mother nature can't be helped but it's very reasonable for someone to want the design and such to be to where things are not so murky.
Yes I've seen that and that also is the sort of thing I'm talking about, faulty design or laziness in making things CLEAR to people. Granted wilderness roads are secluded roads, but if you're going to bother with roads, well then again do it RIGHT.
What part of "wilderness" are you not getting? Roads through remote public lands such as National Forests and BLM lands aren't EVER going top be up to the same build standards as city/suburban streets. That's not faulty design, that's simple reality. The budget doesn't exist to create, let alone maintain, such roads out in the middle of nowhere.
The problem isn't with the roads, the problem is with foolish, ignorant people not taking even the most basic winter travel precautions (such as keeping an emergency kit and winter clothing in their car) and then deliberately driving into areas where they (because of their utter lack of preparation and no winter camping experience) have absolutely no business going.
Want to drive into remote areas in the middle of winter? Fine! Just learn to do it RIGHT. But if you have no interest in learning how to do it right, then don't do it at all.
The family in this story were victims only of their own stupidity. No one with even a half-ounce of common sense would have ended up in their situation, GPS or no GPS. That's because sensible people prepare for winter travel, check the weather forecast before they leave, and stick to the main roads where they can easily get help if their car gets stuck or breaks down.
Last edited by Aredhel; 12-29-2016 at 03:13 PM..
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