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So what if I am one? Not that I am, but so what if I were? I submit that it's "spoken like someone WITH SOME SENSE." I like things to be CLEAR, I don't like vagueness. Why make street signs so small you can't see them? What's the point? It's like those "stylish" watches of years ago that had hands but no numbers at all. Put the freaking numbers on there so there's no guessing if it's pointing halfway between 8 and 9 or if it's on the 9 or whatever. Clarity, people, clarity.
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Originally Posted by Aredhel
What part of "wilderness" are you not getting? Roads through remote public lands such as National Forests and BLM lands aren't EVER going top be up to the same build standards as city/suburban streets. That's not faulty design, that's simple reality. The budget doesn't exist to create, let alone maintain, such roads out in the middle of nowhere.
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That might be the case if you were talking about a road in a place that almost no one goes to, but you're talking about the Grand Canyon. The area has about a gazillion visitors a year. With that type of visitorship, don't tell me the means don't exist to keep things decent and/or that not enough people visit the area to make it worthwhile. Hogwash.
That might be the case if you were talking about a road in a place that almost no one goes to, but you're talking about the Grand Canyon. The area has about a gazillion visitors a year. With that type of visitorship, don't tell me the means don't exist to keep things decent and/or that not enough people visit the area to make it worthwhile. Hogwash.
"On Dec. 22, they set out on what was meant to be a day trip to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon."
From the very first page of the National Park Service Grand Canyon website (https://www.nps.gov/grca/index.htm): "The North Rim of the park is closed for the winter and will reopen on May 15, 2017 for the 2017 Season"
"The North Rim has a short season (May 15 through October 15)
Winter visits to the North Rim :
There is a day use period - with limited services - beginning after the lodge closes on October 15 and lasting until December 1st, or when snow closes highway 67, whichever happens first. At this time the North Rim is Closed for the Winter.
Even though it is not possible to drive vehicles to the North Rim during the winter, hikers, snowshoers and cross country skiers are able to enter the North Rim of the park through the winter months, provided backcountry permits have been obtained. Personal snowmobiles are not permitted inside the park. The North Rim reopens on May 15 of every year."
HOW MUCH CLEARER DO THINGS NEED TO BE?!!! Even the most cursory research would have told them that the trip they were planning was impossible for anyone other than very experienced outdoorsmen.
(And the North Rim of Grand Canyon isn't the only park that's inaccessible to the general public during the winter months. Far from it!)
So what if I am one? Not that I am, but so what if I were? I submit that it's "spoken like someone WITH SOME SENSE." I like things to be CLEAR, I don't like vagueness. Why make street signs so small you can't see them? What's the point? It's like those "stylish" watches of years ago that had hands but no numbers at all. Put the freaking numbers on there so there's no guessing if it's pointing halfway between 8 and 9 or if it's on the 9 or whatever. Clarity, people, clarity.
And I submit that it's spoken like someone who has zero experience in areas like this but still believes that he has a God-given right to experience these areas, on his own terms.
HOW MUCH CLEARER DO THINGS NEED TO BE?!!! Even the most cursory research would have told them that the trip they were planning was impossible for anyone other than very experienced outdoorsmen.
(And the North Rim of Grand Canyon isn't the only park that's inaccessible to the general public during the winter months. Far from it!)
I also wonder how many "road closed ahead" warnings they ignored while furiously listening to their GPS.
I also wonder how many "road closed ahead" warnings they ignored while furiously listening to their GPS.
They ignored the big one: Arizona State Highway 67 was closed. If they'd taken the hint (major road closed in winter = "turn around and go back", not "go onto even smaller and less maintained roads" ), they'd have been fine. Hell, if they'd just asked folks in Las Vegas about their plans, or checked out the Park Service's Grand Canyon information, they'd have known not to even bother to try to get to the North Rim. They did no real trip planning; that's what bit them in the butt.
That might be the case if you were talking about a road in a place that almost no one goes to, but you're talking about the Grand Canyon. The area has about a gazillion visitors a year. With that type of visitorship, don't tell me the means don't exist to keep things decent and/or that not enough people visit the area to make it worthwhile. Hogwash.
The South Rim gets 4 million visitors a year; the North Rim gets about 300K guests. The means to 'keep things decent' in the winter is to concentrate visitors from December to mid-May on the South Rim where it is feasible and cost-effective to keep the roads plowed and lights in the restrooms turned on.
Is the phrase 'seasonal openings and closures' too hard for you to understand? Are you also the type to get caught up in a flash flood in Zion NP after a rainstorm puts the Virgin River over its banks?
That just means that the GPS makers need to do it RIGHT. GPS was invented because some people can't figure maps out very well, and I'm one of them, and SO BE IT--in my mind, especially since GPS now exists, I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO figure maps out. It's too much mental work, and I don't care who thinks that's "lazy" or "entitled" or a "Darwin candidate" or any of that. The GPS should WORK RIGHT or it shouldn't be made AT ALL.
I've tried living the non-GPS life many a time, and the few times the GPS got it wrong was way outweighed by the number of times it saved my bacon. I'm someone who years ago in the pre-GPS days got lost in the city and it took me 1½ hours to get back from the bank only 2 miles from where I was. I'm directionally challenged, it's how God made me I suppose. Does that mean I should never go anywhere or that I should, in the year 2016, have to practically attend a 4 year university to figure maps out? I do agree that taking an Atlas or map as a backup and having someone in the group be the designated "paper map expert" in case of problems is not a bad idea, give their low price and small size, but gee whiz, how about making your GPS units RIGHT to start with?
I've never really understood this idea that one is doing wrong to "depend on technology." I don't have an underground "ice house" for my food because, well, I have an electric refrigerator and I expect the electricity to STAY ON and WORK (that's a side topic for another time, how fragile our electrical infrastructure can be). We no longer have payphones everywhere because most people have cell phones. I don't keep my typewriter laying around because my computer may crash. I haven't printed out every single photo I have, probably over 100,000 of them, because my 3 regularly updated hard drives might all crash at the same time. I don't keep a horse and buggy around in case my car dies. I don't have equipment for hunting wild game in case the grocery stores all of a sudden cease to exist. I don't keep my money stored in jars buried in the ground because banks might close down. I don't keep my entire paycheck in my wallet in cash form because my bank card may act up. I don't have a wood burning stove because my propane heater might stop working.
I do understand SOME accommodations, for instance I have spare keys to our cars in a cabinet AND I have spares in my wallet, and I have my computer files backed up to 3 separate hard drives, and we have 2 cars so when one is "sick" the other one is still there, and we have AAA towing, and I try to keep SOME cash on me in case my bank card acts goofy. I understand reasonable preparation, I do. At the same time, well, a person shouldn't have to use a paper map because GPS units fail, GPS units just shouldn't fail period, do it RIGHT. "There is no cell phone service in the area," well GET cell phone service in the area, at least where you park, I mean the Grand Canyon has a huge rate of visitation and you don't have to spoil the sanctity of the landscape in doing so.
GPS units work off satellites NOT cell phone microwave towers - HUGE difference. If you want to entertain us all with a good rant, at least get your facts straight. Cell phone service can be iffy once you're away from major population centers. Satellites, on the other hand, are up there serenely orbiting the entire earth which means a GPS will give you the correct coordinates no matter where you are from LA to Grand Canyon and points beyond. My cheap little battery operated orienteering GPS will sit on the top of the hood of my truck, hum happily to itself for a few minutes, and then come back to me with my exact location - latitude and longitude and even inform me as to the number of satellites that its currently tracking. Latitude, longitude - got it! I open up my Arizona Gazetteer to the correct page - you can read page numbers? Well, maybe not. At any rate this is hardly rocket science. A third grader can learn how to read a map and understand what latitude and longitude are.
Technology SHOULD do thousands of things that it currently doesn't. However, I am not going to sit around and whine about how things should be. To the greatest extent possible, I depend on myself and my own basic skills and knowledge. If you are unwilling to take care of yourself, that's fine by me, but don't expect me to come to your rescue either as you sit out there lost somewhere and moaning about the unfairness of it all. Back-country search and rescue outfits are starting to charge folks like you for the huge cost of time and effort it takes to go rescue some idiot from himself. I think this should be SOP in every National Park and all public lands. Why should taxpayers have to shell out the $30,000 - $100,000 it takes to come and find baby and bring him home, squealing all the way? If you can't take personal responsibility for your actions, then your bank account will. Works for me.
Last edited by Colorado Rambler; 12-29-2016 at 05:10 PM..
Directionally challenged and technology challenged people do not want to be bothered by reality and facts. Just give it to them when its perfect what ever that really means. Do they ever wonder how this stuff came to exist for them to use and abuse? Reminds me when the Malaysia air plane disappeared after going off course near the Indian Ocean, the out cry was what do you mean a big plane can disappear lol? They have no idea how large the Indian ocean is and how uninhabited it is. Perhaps their should be a cave dweller haven they can hang out together without technology that is not perfect.
"come on man this is the grand canyon, how big can it be? lol
I would suggest maps are a dying technique. Last 25 years or less I think.
Basically too much trouble. Maps are now for all intents and purposes electronic data bases. Doing a printed version will remain possible but the printing and distribution systems are on their way out. You are going to have to print your own.
And the further problem will be that the up to date information will be available only in the electronic version.
So the map and compass is now two or three GPSs. I am a reasonably well trained navigator for the seas...learned the art before GPS. And I have reasonable experience with airplanes and rough country hiking. And yes I could find my way most anywhere with a map and a compass.
Those day however are gone. You use a different strategy. You get a GPS mapper with the latest information for the area in question. And you may well have a second and even a third. And you work out a strategy to assure redundant batteries to the extent needed. A GPS can actually last a very long time in hiking use. You turn it on when you need a fix. And leave it off when you don't.
And if you are anywhere near civilization or up high you turn your phone on once in a while. Never can tell you may catch some tidbit you care about.
^^^Except that a good compass is a heck of a lot cheaper than a second GPS unit, and the compass + topo map option is also lighter (and every ounce counts when you are carrying everything on your back). For those reasons alone, I expect compasses and printed topo maps won't be going away any time soon.
Last edited by Aredhel; 12-29-2016 at 07:48 PM..
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