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I worked in a jail, it certainly never led me to believe that inmates are subhuman or should be denied medical care. So what exactly is your point?
In your time working in a jail did you take every inmate to the hospital every time they requested to go to the hospital?
There may have been some neglect in this case. The jailers may not have given this young lady enough attention, took her seriously enough or checked on her frequently enough. I guess the courts will determine that. But if you have worked in a jail spending the majority of your day in and out dealing with addicts, drunks, liars and derelicts its hard to believe you run every inmate to the hospital with every request especially if that person initially withheld information about their condition then initially lied about being in distress (if that is true).
My brother is an officer and spent time as a jailer as did several of my friends. Although I have never worked in law enforcement I have heard enough stories over the years to get the impression its a chit show in there. Officers have to determine who is sincere and in there by happenstance and who are the liars. Initially being honest and forthcoming sure helps and this woman was not. This also was not her first time in jail so she shouldn't be a stranger to how to go about seeing to her medical needs, one dont withhold your condition and two dont say you are in withdrawals when your not.
I am still wondering why there was no bail for traffic violations. One article said she told her mother not to bail her out. Others said she was denied bail and thats when she asked the officers to take her to the hospital. So why would she be denied bail? Missed court dates?
In your time working in a jail did you take every inmate to the hospital every time they requested to go to the hospital?
There may have been some neglect in this case. The jailers may not have given this young lady enough attention, took her seriously enough or checked on her frequently enough. I guess the courts will determine that. But if you have worked in a jail spending the majority of your day in and out dealing with addicts, drunks, liars and derelicts its hard to believe you run every inmate to the hospital with every request especially if that person initially withheld information about their condition then initially lied about being in distress (if that is true).
My brother is an officer and spent time as a jailer as did several of my friends. Although I have never worked in law enforcement I have heard enough stories over the years to get the impression its a chit show in there. Officers have to determine who is sincere and in there by happenstance and who are the liars. Initially being honest and forthcoming sure helps and this woman was not. This also was not her first time in jail so she shouldn't be a stranger to how to go about seeing to her medical needs, one dont withhold your condition and two dont say you are in withdrawals when your not.
I am still wondering why there was no bail for traffic violations. One article said she told her mother not to bail her out. Others said she was denied bail and thats when she asked the officers to take her to the hospital. So why would she be denied bail? Missed court dates?
I didn't realize it but the jail does have a policy for detoxing inmates and the staff violated it.
Quote:
The jail designates “max cells” for inmates at risk because of drug abuse, the lawsuit states. Deputies are supposed to monitor those inmates every 15-20 minutes, with a physical check to be done twice an hour if the inmate is lying down. The deputy placing the inmate into the security cell must also start an incident report and protective custody watch sheet, which should include details of the circumstances of the inmate, as well as observations and actions of deputies. A sergeant is supposed to act as a medical liaison to schedule appointments, maintain the inmate’s medical records and fill and refill medications as needed, the suit states. https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/...UT0yaba0hg6qJ/
That policy is consistent with the one that existed in the jail I worked in, and is pretty much standard protocol in most jails. I'm puzzled as to why you go to such lengths to blame everyone except the jail staff. They are 100% complicit in this woman's death and I'm pretty sure they will pay plenty to settle the lawsuit and will likely end up being criminally prosecuted. And what are you talking about regarding this woman being honest? When she was booked she told the jailer that she has seizures when she goes into withdrawal.
The girl was trying to save her own life, yet according to you, she was "making a pain of herself to the staff."
It isn't about how "most innocent people don't get thrown in jail." It's about how those who are in county/federal/state custody for whatever reason are entitled to a certain standard of care. You can read more about that here:
Basically what you're saying is that anyone who gets thrown in jail for whatever reason deserves to die.
You sound like a real joy to be around.
These are people that would be much happier living in a place like the Philippines, and having what is basically a tyrannical dictatorship, their opinions are certainly not the American system of justice, they do not believe someone should be able to 'pay off their debt to society', they prefer crimes to be held over the person for their ENTIRE LIFE!!
It's really not about sympathy for the person in this case.
It's about an expectation that the government will properly safeguard individuals in its charge. An incarcerated person is a ward of the state. The state has an obligation - a moral obligation - to assure basic levels of safety and care.
Really, it's about you and I. That's who the state is: us. We are the state. I expect the state not to abandon people in cells to die. What about you? I guess you're cool with that.
Hopefully, it's never anyone you happen to care about who finds themselves, unconvicted, in state custody and ignored and left to die. But I suppose you imagine that the state is so perfect and infallible that this only happens to 'those who deserve it' (you, of course, being the supreme arbiter of who deserves what).
The manner in which we treat prisoners is a microcosm of that society as a whole.
I didn't realize it but the jail does have a policy for detoxing inmates and the staff violated it.
That policy is consistent with the one that existed in the jail I worked in, and is pretty much standard protocol in most jails. I'm puzzled as to why you go to such lengths to blame everyone except the jail staff. They are 100% complicit in this woman's death and I'm pretty sure they will pay plenty to settle the lawsuit and will likely end up being criminally prosecuted. And what are you talking about regarding this woman being honest? When she was booked she told the jailer that she has seizures when she goes into withdrawal.
Im looking at both sides and your ignoring reality as well as any facts (according to media reports which is all we have to go on) regarding this woman's responsibility in this. I stated the officers may have been negligent in their duties I am not blaming anyone.
According to reporting she withheld her medical condition regarding drug addiction and seizures. It was not until she realized she could not make bail (4 hours) that she went to the officer requesting to be taken to the hospital for withdrawals.
I will assume protocol is for inmates when booked to answer questions and fill out forms concerning any medical conditions they have?
Is this all you got? For the number of days she spent there what is 4 hours? You are the only one ignoring reality. Did you even read anything from the report? It is from state investigators, not just some made up story by this woman's supporters. Here is a key fact from the report that likely would have saved this woman's life:
The jail policies also require that the hospital be called any time an inmate requests a visit to the emergency room. The inmate is supposed to fill out a request form describing the illness.
The medical liaison is also supposed to start a medical file on all inmates requesting a trip to the hospital, the lawsuit states.
The report from state investigators indicates that none of those policies were followed
Maybe we are ignoring reality. The reality that these lazy people thought they knew more than they did. They thought she was lying. That they were too lazy or dumb to know their own policies. Getting up to check on someone according to policy was too much of an inconvenience for them. Getting the cell cleaned up from her vomit properly was too much to deal with so they made her do it.
Yep, these are the realities and they all suck. I am not sure what you are defending here but best case scenario is that these officers just didn't know the policies. If they did then there is nothing to argue or defend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
Im looking at both sides and your ignoring reality as well as any facts (according to media reports which is all we have to go on) regarding this woman's responsibility in this. I stated the officers may have been negligent in their duties I am not blaming anyone. According to reporting she withheld her medical condition regarding drug addiction and seizures. It was not until she realized she could not make bail (4 hours) that she went to the officer requesting to be taken to the hospital for withdrawals.
I will assume protocol is for inmates when booked to answer questions and fill out forms concerning any medical conditions they have?
Im looking at both sides and your ignoring reality as well as any facts (according to media reports which is all we have to go on) regarding this woman's responsibility in this. I stated the officers may have been negligent in their duties I am not blaming anyone.
According to reporting she withheld her medical condition regarding drug addiction and seizures. It was not until she realized she could not make bail (4 hours) that she went to the officer requesting to be taken to the hospital for withdrawals.
I will assume protocol is for inmates when booked to answer questions and fill out forms concerning any medical conditions they have?
She did not deny her medical conditions - where did you get that? I posted this source earlier:
Quote:
When she realized she would not be able to make bail, she told Holland she was opioid-dependent and suffered seizures if she went through withdrawal, the Gazette Journal reported. Holland failed to have her taken to the hospital to be medically cleared. Jail staff also failed to monitor her vital signs as required by the medical policies, the the newspaper reported.
About four hours into her jail stay, Coltrain told Gulcynski, the night deputy, that she needed to go to the hospital for medication. He told her she could not go to the hospital unless he determined her life was in danger. “Unfortunately, since you’re DT’ing (referring to the detoxification process), I’m not going to take you over to the hospital right now just to get your fix,” Gulcynski told her, according to the Gazette Journal. “That’s not the way detention works, unfortunately. You are incarcerated with us, so … you don’t get to go to the hospital when you want. When we feel that your life is at risk … then you will go.” https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/...UT0yaba0hg6qJ/
Her bail was $1,750 she told her Mother not to post bail for her, her mother was concerned and called the jail: (this is from the civil lawsuit which is contained in the link I posted)
Quote:
On July 20, 2017, Fesser called the Jail and spoke with Holland. Fesser explained she was Kelly’s mother. Holland responded: “Good, I can get verification of this. Kelly stated she was drug dependent and had seizures so she needed to go to the hospital.” Fesser responded: “Kelly did have seizures.” Holland said: “That’s another reason to keep her under observation. Kelly had mentioned she might as well die. Kelly said she needed medical care. I explained to her we could take care of her since we have a fine medical facility.” Holland told Fesser: “Kelly will be taken good care of.” Holland stated: “I have four daughters and I will keep Kelly safe and check on her.” Fesser thanked Holland and stated she would be calling the next day
What else in your perfect world could the girl or her mother have done to prevent her from dying?
She did not deny her medical conditions - where did you get that? I posted this source earlier:
Her bail was $1,750 she told her Mother not to post bail for her, her mother was concerned and called the jail: (this is from the civil lawsuit which is contained in the link I posted)
What else in your perfect world could the girl or her mother have done to prevent her from dying?
the previous paragraph:
Quote:
The report from state investigators indicates that none of those policies were followed, according to the Gazette Journal and the lawsuit. The probe found that Coltrain, who was arrested after she was stopped for speeding, initially refused to answer questions about her medical history.
Is a person not asked questions upon booking about their medical conditions? Is that protocol?
Quote:
When she realized she would not be able to make bail, she told Holland she was opioid-dependent and suffered seizures if she went through withdrawal, the Gazette Journal reported.he only (again according to various media reports) told them when she found she couldnt make bail.
Why would she tell her mom not to bail her out. Other reports said "denied bail". So why would she be denied bail?
Again, I am going by various media reports. I notice you have paid attention to what her mother said but not what the officers said. I'm looking at both.
the previous paragraph:
Is a person not asked questions upon booking about their medical conditions? Is that protocol?
Why would she tell her mom not to bail her out. Other reports said "denied bail". So why would she be denied bail?
Again, I am going by various media reports. I notice you have paid attention to what her mother said but not what the officers said. I'm looking at both.
I have paid attention to what appears to be the most reliable source available. I'm not going to argue this with you, where are your sources that backup your claims? I've read nothing about her being denied bail, what is your source for that? This is the closest I found:
Quote:
While being booked, Coltrain initially refused to answer questions about her medical history and next of kin. But soon after she learned she wouldn't be able to make bail, she informed Sgt. Jim Holland that she was dependent on drugs and had a history of seizures when she went through withdrawals, according to the investigative report.
After Coltrain came forward with her medical history, Holland did not follow a jail policy that requires inmates with a history of seizures to be cleared by a doctor before being held at the jail. Nor did jail staff follow medical protocol of carefully monitoring the vitals of a person undergoing withdrawals. https://www.rgj.com/story/news/2018/...nt/1145643002/
And it does not say she was denied bail, it said that she couldn't make bail. Apparently her mother subsequently offered to post bail and she declined the offer, that could be because she felt like she had caused this to happen and that it wasn't right for her mother to have to pay for it.
Is this all you got? For the number of days she spent there what is 4 hours? You are the only one ignoring reality. Did you even read anything from the report? It is from state investigators, not just some made up story by this woman's supporters. Here is a key fact from the report that likely would have saved this woman's life:
Yes I did read it and several other reports.
She claimed to be detoxing after 4 hours of her arrest. She initially, I assume when she was booked and asked about medical conditions, did not revel her medical condition. It was 4 hours later that she told them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendersj
[B
The jail policies also require that the hospital be called any time an inmate requests a visit to the emergency room. The inmate is supposed to fill out a request form describing the illness.
The medical liaison is also supposed to start a medical file on all inmates requesting a trip to the hospital, the lawsuit states.
The report from state investigators indicates that none of those policies were followed [/b]
Maybe we are ignoring reality. The reality that these lazy people thought they knew more than they did. They thought she was lying. That they were too lazy or dumb to know their own policies. Getting up to check on someone according to policy was too much of an inconvenience for them. Getting the cell cleaned up from her vomit properly was too much to deal with so they made her do it.
Yep, these are the realities and they all suck. I am not sure what you are defending here but best case scenario is that these officers just didn't know the policies. If they did then there is nothing to argue or defend.
Policies are often not followed to a T because its not possible. I cant imagine a small jail being required to call the hospital any time an inmate requests a visit to the ER. Are they to call an ambulance? Just call the hospital, or take them to the hospital? Did the inmate fill out a request form?
Who is the medical liaison and what training is required?
You and 2sleepy are really getting riled up over this. If you would try to look at it more objectively you would realize I'm not defending them. I'm not crucifying them either. I'm asking questions and making points. I honestly dont believe anyone unless its their explicit job knows the details of every policy in their workplace. I'd also bet that often resources aren't available to carry out much of the written policy in many places, especially government entities.
I'm sure the staff were negligent, they should have been more attentive and taken her more seriously. I dont think their actions were malicious. I still dont understand why she was in jail 4 days over unpaid traffic violations with no bail.
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