Perry--you just got to say he is either nuts or well--nuts (wage, tax)

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by EDS_

I've heard the same thing.
I think using part of it - 10-30% - might be workable. Using it all is a non-starter. Even vaguely-conservative democrats won't go for that.

Now I can be a little more specific. I agree with bolded part, but I am in favor of using up to 50%.

We've been talking about education and other quality of life issues, but you still haven't said anything about our broken TXDOT agency. Or our aging sewage and water plants. Or our aging freight railroad network. I could go on.

Texas infrastructure is key driver of our economic success, what's the value of our imports and exports going out Texas ports and state lines?

I realize our local municipalities have control over things like sewage and port authorities have control over ports. But they need money too. What do we need to do to make sure that ships and freight trucks can import and export goods we Texas produce and want get here efficiently?

[Trae713]

Originally Posted by loves2read

Texas has a massive cadre of mostly Mexican legal and illegal aliens who account for most all of the outcome gap between Texas and other states.

and California doesn't share that demographic--or Arizona--even Georgia with its carpet and poultry plants is seeing massing flux of legal and illegal aliens--usually Hispanic

and from what I have seen of the California public education system--to claim we are tied with it--is not good news...

California students score better on standardized tests and their universities are a lot better than Texas' (they have more Tier 1's).

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by loves2read

Texas has a massive cadre of mostly Mexican legal and illegal aliens who account for most all of the outcome gap between Texas and other states.

and California doesn't share that demographic--or Arizona--even Georgia with its carpet and poultry plants is seeing massing flux of legal and illegal aliens--usually Hispanic

and from what I have seen of the California public education system--to claim we are tied with it--is not good news...

Well put.

However, CA does excel in its public college and university system. It's unfortanute that they are going to take a hit too with the cuts, but you have to make everyone pay. I digress though.... Texas just doesn't compete well nationally when it comes to our public universities.

This nation's brightest are graduating on the West Coast and NE Coast. I guess Texas will have to continue to rely on good jobs being here in order to attract the brightest to move here.

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by EDS_

The problem is you are not going to get what you want. If it sucks so badly here why not move to one of the high tax utopias where you would feel better?

Why in the world should Texas go left when that mind set has failed and failed miserably in California, Michigan, Illinois and especially Ohio.

Here's your problem. Because you view that these state's policies are antithetical to Texas's and that these states are not doing well and Texas is doing better; therefore Texas's policies are correct.

This view is far too simplistic to even began to start to make those sort of assumptions. Could it be that a combination of policies from states that are doing both well and not so well could produce better results than what Texas is doing? Can you promise me in ten years we won't be saying "Look at Texas, it's low tax and business friendly environment policies led to its failed state?"

Should Dallas become - Detroit, Cleveland, Dayton etc.?

I didn't realize DFW was heavily tied to one industry like those cities you mentioned. But then again, like I alluded to earlier, the reasons are just not that simple.

Two things help paint a better context vis a vis Texas educational spending and outcomes.

1. When adjusted for regional costs Texas and California spend within a few dollars of each other per kid per year. The last time I looked the difference was less that $20 per kid.

Yay our bottom tiered craptacular state public education system is a little more efficient at spending than our nation's largest craptacular system. Those are results you can be proud of!

1A. If raw dollars spent mattered most New Hampshire's #1 state spending ranking would yield better than about #30 on SAT scores.

I've already said that increased spending doesn't necessarily produce better results. However, try arguing that Texas's current policies are producing results that would put us above the national average.

2. Texas has a massive cadre of mostly Mexican legal and illegal aliens who account for most all of the outcome gap between Texas and other states.

Great point. Because of this, we should be spending the money necessary to educate them. Like people mentioned, this isn't a Texas only problem. Just like the Irish and European immigrants of the late 1800's and early 1900's, it took them several generations before they become assimilated and broke into the ranks of the middle class. Before they could assimilate though, the Progressive movement happened in urban areas. These new found social services, along with churches and the private sector, paved the way for assimilation through multiple generations.

Back to the present time, we need to do what it takes make sure this segment of the population is educated as there children are becoming the majority. If we don't do what it takes, Texas will stop looking attractive to the middle class because it will become the land of the haves and haves not.

Don't believe me? Look at the results of current educational policies. One example, our kids today in 2011 aren't graduating at an acceptable rate. What will happen 2021?

But first we need to collectively come to the conclusion that the results we are getting from our current state's educational policies are not cutting it!

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by loves2read

Texas has a massive cadre of mostly Mexican legal and illegal aliens who account for most all of the outcome gap between Texas and other states.

and California doesn't share that demographic--or Arizona--even Georgia with its carpet and poultry plants is seeing massing flux of legal and illegal aliens--usually Hispanic

and from what I have seen of the California public education system--to claim we are tied with it--is not good news...

Now you and I have lots of common ground here. Public education in most of the US is terrible. However, SAT scores vary a lot state to state in some states just a few percent of kids take the test. In other most everyone does.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by Scarface713

California students score better on standardized tests and their universities are a lot better than Texas' (they have more Tier 1's).

Look at those SAT scores, Cali's are just a little better and their participation rate is lower. I'd call that a push.

Calif. is a lot bigger by population it should have more great universities. That said we need more Tier One universities here for sure.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by dv1033

Well put.

However, CA does excel in its public college and university system. It's unfortanute that they are going to take a hit too with the cuts, but you have to make everyone pay. I digress though.... Texas just doesn't compete well nationally when it comes to our public universities.

This nation's brightest are graduating on the West Coast and NE Coast. I guess Texas will have to continue to rely on good jobs being here in order to attract the brightest to move here.

That's just raw over-statement. And you are comparing areas with maybe 75-90 million people to a state with 24.

Baylor has been given an A by the ACTA
Are you in any way claiming that a young person with an engineering degree from UT isn't going to be able to compete well against graduates from coastal schools? How about someone with an accounting degree from Baylor, Vet Med from A&M? Anything from Rice. How about pre-med from Austin College? I read something the other day about SMU Law producing more billionaires than any school. Someone help me with the details.

Not saying there isn't work to do but running down Texas colleges and universities is a non-starter.

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by EDS_

That's just raw over-statement. And you are comparing areas with maybe 75-90 million people to a state with 24.

You should actually sit down, look, and compare where the top ranked schools are and see how many are in Texas.

Baylor has been given an A by the ACTA
Are you in any way claiming that a young person with an engineering degree from UT isn't going to be able to compete well against graduates from coastal schools? How about someone with an accounting degree from Baylor, Vet Med from A&M? Anything from Rice. How about pre-med from Austin College? I read something the other day about SMU Law producing more billionaires than any school. Someone help me with the details.

Not saying there isn't work to do but running down Texas colleges and universities is a non-starter.

Please spare me your indignation. First of all, Baylor, SMU, and Rice (which is the number one school in Texas) are all private (remember we are talking public here).

Using the most generic methodology of ranking (US News), you don't start to see any public schools until UT at 45. There's unfortunately a lot space between Rice (17) and UT (45).

Furthermore, I'm very familiar with the specific programs that standout among our public universities, but here is the thing.... a large majority of the students aren't enrolled in those programs.

Cali vs Texas population:
Cali: ~37,000,000
Texas: ~25,000,000

Total # of schools in top 50:
Cali: 9
Texas: 2

Private Schools in top 50:
Cali: 2
Texas: 1

Public Schools in top 50:
Cali: 7
Texas: 1

Calif. is a lot bigger by population it should have more great universities. That said we need more Tier One universities here for sure.

There I gave you population and schools, perhaps you can calculate the ratio so we can see how we rank?

Not to mention that CA if educating far more students at higher quality institutions. Of course with the budget cuts in CA, the universities will take a hit. Even so, I bet CA higher education will still surpass Texas higher education once they get the axe taken to 'em.

I'm a product of our state's higher education, thank God it educated me enough to see how screwed up Texas got its priorities.

And by all means, please use whatever metric you want to compare schools in your response.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by dv1033

You should actually sit down, look, and compare where the top ranked schools are and see how many are in Texas.

Please spare me your indignation. First of all, Baylor, SMU, and Rice (which is the number one school in Texas) are all private (remember we are talking public here).

Using the most generic methodology of ranking (US News), you don't start to see any public schools until UT at 45. There's unfortunately a lot space between Rice (17) and UT (45).

Furthermore, I'm very familiar with the specific programs that standout among our public universities, but here is the thing.... a large majority of the students aren't enrolled in those programs.

Cali vs Texas population:
Cali: ~37,000,000
Texas: ~25,000,000

Total # of schools in top 50:
Cali: 9
Texas: 2

Private Schools in top 50:
Cali: 2
Texas: 1

Public Schools in top 50:
Cali: 7
Texas: 1

There I gave you population and schools, perhaps you can calculate the ratio so we can see how we rank?

Not to mention that CA if educating far more students at higher quality institutions. Of course with the budget cuts in CA, the universities will take a hit. Even so, I bet CA higher education will still surpass Texas higher education once they get the axe taken to 'em.

I'm a product of our state's higher education, thank God it educated me enough to see how screwed up Texas got its priorities.

And by all means, please use whatever metric you want to compare schools in your response.

As I said before if it's so great there why stay here?

And frankly, why are so many Californians looking to leave your educational paradise?

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by EDS_

As I said before if it's so great there why stay here?

Um because I'm a Texan. Why flee when we can begin the process of achieving better higher education?

And frankly, why are so many Californians looking to leave your educational paradise?

Frankly, you should look at facts before you speak. It seems California had a net increase of ~3.5 million citizens from 2000-2010. And furthermore, much of that growth was fueled by Hispanics, much like Texas.

I think you've had to much of the kool-aid and the high fives and chest pumping the conservatives have been given you.