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I wouldn't necessarily consider Denver a prissy city, but you may have a point about the working-class mentality. That will have to change if you're hoping to attract people to the area that would obviously be looking for new friends in the area. And I don't know why you'd question the veracity of what my friend experienced. What incentive do I have to lie about this? My entire family is back in Metro Detroit and I WANT to be back there. I try to get my friend to spend time with me in the city, and he refuses to go down there because of what he experienced.
I think what Detroit needs to attract more of is immigrants. Immigration is really responsible for sustaining most older large cities. Detroit is woefully underrepresented in Hispanic and Asian populations. The future of America is the minority population and going forward Detroit has to become immigrant friendly and the main reason that it has not is due to the economic base. Immigrants tend to go where there is the greatest employment opportunities.
That having been said, many cities have the "edge" that Detroit has....its just compartmentalized. That is likely what will happen in Detroit. The people who like prissy crowds will create their own little island for the prissy and stay away from the other areas and eventually drive out those who are not prissy from their island by economic segregation.
Its not that I do not trust what you are telling me....it might be that I don't trust the story you have been told. I was not there and you were not there to see what actually transpired with your "friend" in Detroit. I am not sure who was really being mean to your friend, the customers or the co-workers or both. I think Detroit will survive with or without your friend, however.
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I think what you're saying here is more reflective of how few whites are in the city than it is of how blacks are nicer to whites. And let's not get into race politics and frivolous uproar. Trayvon Martin, anyone?
Nope! Its true now and historically has been true. There was a time that blacks HAD to treat white with more respect than they treated each other, whether it was genuine or not. That is most of our history in this nation. You also have to realize that many blacks have internalized white historical perceptions of blacks and we still grant favoritism to things that are "whiter" than they are black. I cannot tell you how much mean mugging I get from other black males because they see me as a threat or challenge to whatever. That may be due to the fact that everyone looks a little harder as a means of deterring potential aggressors. You cannot walk around looking like "Howdy Dowdy".
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So now expecting to be treated with respect and common decency is thinking you're special? Everything you mention in this paragraph is everything that is wrong with the mentality in Detroit. Good luck attracting any outsiders with this a your motto.
Well....the thing about it is that these communities are the way they are precisely because their people were not treated with respect and common decency for centuries. The problem with the mentality of America is that it refuses to lay in the bed that it made for itself. Again, this is not a DETROIT issue, its an African American issue as Detroit is simply a microcosm of blacks in America...specifically working class blacks and poor blacks.
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Again, this is more reflective of how broken down this city is. It's ridiculous to think that you can't drive, bike, or walk around a Detroit neighborhood as a white man without someone thinking you're only there to buy drugs. LOL
Well....white folks brought that upon themselves because nearly EVERY neighborhood in Detroit used to be a white neighborhood and nobody forced them to leave it to black folks.
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Hell no. Neither one of us can stand radical political pundits, whether it's Rush Limbaugh or Keith Olbermann.
Is he a conservative though? Many conservatives, in my experience, just assume the worst about people and hence create their own self fulfilling prophecies.
Its not that I do not trust what you are telling me....it might be that I don't trust the story you have been told. I was not there and you were not there to see what actually transpired with your "friend" in Detroit. I am not sure who was really being mean to your friend, the customers or the co-workers or both. I think Detroit will survive with or without your friend, however.
It's probably more that you don't trust what doesn't align with your worldview.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Nope! Its true now and historically has been true. There was a time that blacks HAD to treat white with more respect than they treated each other, whether it was genuine or not. That is most of our history in this nation. You also have to realize that many blacks have internalized white historical perceptions of blacks and we still grant favoritism to things that are "whiter" than they are black. I cannot tell you how much mean mugging I get from other black males because they see me as a threat or challenge to whatever. That may be due to the fact that everyone looks a little harder as a means of deterring potential aggressors. You cannot walk around looking like "Howdy Dowdy".
So maybe they should change their attitudes as a whole and stop acting as if they are so hard. LOL
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Well....the thing about it is that these communities are the way they are precisely because their people were not treated with respect and common decency for centuries. The problem with the mentality of America is that it refuses to lay in the bed that it made for itself. Again, this is not a DETROIT issue, its an African American issue as Detroit is simply a microcosm of blacks in America...specifically working class blacks and poor blacks.
Ah, so you're one of those from the Reparations schools of thought. So my great-great-great-great-great grand children should still be responsible for the sins of my great-great-great-great grandfather. That makes perfect logical sense. It's funny how Jews didn't allow the Holocaust to hinder their success. Why do African Americans? Heck, if Jews had the same entitlement/victim mentality, I'd probably owe them money, too, due to my German ancestry. But instead they decided to dominate the world.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Well....white folks brought that upon themselves because nearly EVERY neighborhood in Detroit used to be a white neighborhood and nobody forced them to leave it to black folks.
Nobody forced the Jews out of Europe either, I guess. But rioting and violence towards your entire group tends to make one question whether staying somewhere makes sense. Not to mention, having tanks and National Guardsmen walking down your streets with rifles drawn is kinda scary I'd imagine.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Is he a conservative though? Many conservatives, in my experience, just assume the worst about people and hence create their own self fulfilling prophecies.
I should have not responded solely based on this bigoted comment. I'm not even conservative, but I know bigotry and bias when I see it.
It's probably more that you don't trust what doesn't align with your worldview.
I can entertain that possibility....and so should you and your friend.
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So maybe they should change their attitudes as a whole and stop acting as if they are so hard. LOL
Human nature does not work that way. Turtles have shells for a reason, while Lions do not. Entities do what they must to promote their survival.
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Ah, so you're one of those from the Reparations schools of thought. So my great-great-great-great-great grand children should still be responsible for the sins of my great-great-great-great grandfather. That makes perfect logical sense. It's funny how Jews didn't allow the Holocaust to hinder their success. Why do African Americans? Heck, if Jews had the same entitlement/victim mentality, I'd probably owe them money, too, due to my German ancestry. But instead they decided to dominate the world.
Nope. You are the one complaining about what Detroit is NOT. Detroiters are not asking or begging you or your friends for for anything, save a few homeless people with signs asking for handouts. Still, its the bed that this country made whether something is asked for in return or not. All actions produce reactions and there was a 300 plus years evolution of racist actions and reactions begetting this accrued reality known as Detroit proper.
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Nobody forced the Jews out of Europe either, I guess. But rioting and violence towards your entire group tends to make one question whether staying somewhere makes sense. Not to mention, having tanks and National Guardsmen walking down your streets with rifles drawn is kinda scary I'd imagine.
Oh yes....what an apropos analogy, given the history of black persecution of whites. I certainly remember those days of mass extermination of whites at the hands of blacks. I plan on visiting the white Holocaust museum to honor the victims and keep that history remember, lest it be repeated.
PS...what color were most of the victims of the riot? Who was being shot by police and soldiers?
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I should have not responded solely based on this bigoted comment. I'm not even conservative, but I know bigotry and bias when I see it.
Yeah...you bit off more than you could chew huh? Yeah....its all my fault that segregationists Dixicrats eventually morphed into the conservative party (Republicans) giving birth to the Southern Strategy of the republican parties viability.
Note to self: He refused to answer whether his friend is a conservative.....became defensive. Deflected by saying that HE, himself, was not a conservative.....but it was HIS FRIEND who has a problem with Detroit and whose "world views" are in question.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 11-19-2013 at 11:02 AM..
Nope. You are the one complaining about what Detroit is NOT. Detroiters are not asking or begging you or your friends for for anything, save a few homeless people with signs asking for handouts. Still, its the bed that this country made whether something is asked for in return or not. All actions produce reactions and there was a 300 plus years evolution of racist actions and reactions begetting this accrued reality known as Detroit proper.
Detroit doesn't need me or my friend. They need tens of thousands of middle-class, educated people to re-inhabit the city if it is to even come close to being in the same class as a prissy city like Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis, or Portland. Good luck with those street lights and that laughing stock you call a police force without tax revenue.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Oh yes....what an apropos analogy, given the history of black persecution of whites. I certainly remember those days of mass extermination of whites at the hands of blacks. I plan on visiting the white Holocaust museum to honor the victims and keep that history remember, lest it be repeated.
PS...what color were most of the victims of the riot? Who was being shot by police and soldiers?
I refuse to get into a "whose wound is deeper" argument. Both whites and blacks were victims of the riots. What does this have to do with today? Get over it already. Trust me, drop the victim mentality and you'll be far better off in life.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Yeah...you bit off more than you could chew huh? Yeah....its all my fault that segregationists Dixicrats eventually morphed into the conservative party (Republicans) giving birth to the Southern Strategy of the republican parties viability.
I'm still not sure what this has to do with my original proposition that Detroiters tend not to be the friendliest people.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Note to self: He refused to answer whether his friend is a conservative.....became defensive. Deflected by saying that HE, himself, was not a conservative.....but it was HIS FRIEND who has a problem with Detroit and whose "world views" are in question.
My friend is not conservative or racist. I believe he voted for Obama during the last election.
Please focus on the topic, not each other. This is just a phase every controversial thread has to go through before it gets serious, now that it's behind you you can stop getting personal
Yac.
Detroit doesn't need me or my friend. They need tens of thousands of middle-class, educated people to re-inhabit the city if it is to even come close to being in the same class as a prissy city like Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis, or Portland. Good luck with those street lights and that laughing stock you call a police force without tax revenue.
Well....do not superimpose your value system upon all others. Just because one person likes tooty fruty does not mean it tickles another taste buds. I happen to LIVE, now, in one of the cities you mentioned and I am not IMPRESSED!! The ONLY reason I moved here was for economic opportunity....not due to fleeing a dysfunctional city. If my wife and I had the same employment opportunities that we do here, in Detroit, we would be in Detroit. I could live in a mansion in Detroit based upon what we are paying here. In fact, I hope Detroit NEVER becomes like the aforementioned cities. Blah...
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I refuse to get into a "whose wound is deeper" argument. Both whites and blacks were victims of the riots. What does this have to do with today? Get over it already. Trust me, drop the victim mentality and you'll be far better off in life.
Whose wounds are deeper....are you kidding me? For blacks the riots were a rebellion against the wounds being inflicted by oppression and injustice. There IS NO argument concerning whose wounds are deeper unless a person lacks a keen grasp of the obvious.
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I'm still not sure what this has to do with my original proposition that Detroiters tend not to be the friendliest people.
Again....everything is relative. There are many vibrant cities where people are not known to be the friendliest.
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My friend is not conservative or racist. I believe he voted for Obama during the last election.
Good....that is all you had to say.....which is an answer that tend to give his experience more credibility.
All that having been said.....I am not worried or losing sleep over Detroit future. The state HAS to fix Detroit and make if viable or it will continue to drag down the state. Young people desire an urban environment and many young people are attracted to a "gritty" urban environment, plus, Detroit is dirt cheap. Detroit's revival is really dependent upon jobs coming back to the area. It depends on the stabilization and growth of the auto industry and the growth of a more diverse employment base.
Well....do not superimpose your value system upon all others. Just because one person likes tooty fruty does not mean it tickles another taste buds. I happen to LIVE, now, in one of the cities you mentioned and I am not IMPRESSED!! The ONLY reason I moved here was for economic opportunity....not due to fleeing a dysfunctional city. If my wife and I had the same employment opportunities that we do here, in Detroit, we would be in Detroit. I could live in a mansion in Detroit based upon what we are paying here. In fact, I hope Detroit NEVER becomes like the aforementioned cities. Blah...
All that having been said.....I am not worried or losing sleep over Detroit future. The state HAS to fix Detroit and make if viable or it will continue to drag down the state. Young people desire an urban environment and many young people are attracted to a "gritty" urban environment, plus, Detroit is dirt cheap. Detroit's revival is really dependent upon jobs coming back to the area. It depends on the stabilization and growth of the auto industry and the growth of a more diverse employment base.
Economic opportunity is important. But so is having an environment that is conducive to building new relationships in the new area you live. I have a friend who just moved back to Denver after living in Seattle for about a year. He had some good opportunities there in the advertising field, but he said the people there tend not to be that friendly. I forgot what he called it, maybe something like the "Seattle Freeze". Personally, I would want to move to a place that not only has great economic opportunities, but where the people are friendly and laid back. Denver is one of the best places in the US for that IMO.
Detroit does have the cheap real estate going for it. That was one of the big reasons I came back here. I was hoping to land a local job and get a place in Midtown or Downtown. The job market is still not that good here unless you're an engineer or work in the auto industry. I just had an interview in Denver and hopefully it results in a solid job offer. I will happily move back to a place that offers a better, more diverse economy and people who want to welcome you into their homes with a big smile on their face.
One thing that confuses me...wikipedia says Michigan is one of the highest investing states in R&D in the US. I would think a large amount of this is in the detroit area. How is it that we dont have a diverse enough employment base outside the auto industry with so much money being put in to new and growing tech? Or when we talk the doom and gloom is it really focused on the city proper only?
edit, changed detroit to michigan, but forgot to change city to state lol
One thing that confuses me...wikipedia says Michigan is one of the highest investing states in R&D in the US. I would think a large amount of this is in the detroit area. How is it that we dont have a diverse enough employment base outside the auto industry with so much money being put in to new and growing tech? Or when we talk the doom and gloom is it really focused on the city proper only?
edit, changed detroit to michigan, but forgot to change city to state lol
The region as a whole has a tight job market in my experience. The auto industry dominates the economy here still, which is a positive and a negative. Obviously, it's a very lucrative industry that has helped build this region up into what it is today. However, if it goes, the region goes. And finding a job without years of relevant or recent experience has proven to be a very tedious and difficult challenge. As someone else once put it, it's a very incestuous industry. This means they don't look kindly to outsiders.
Detroit proper's job market is another animal in and of itself. The u/e rate in Detroit is 18.8%. Comparing that to any other major city is pretty depressing.
Economic opportunity is important. But so is having an environment that is conducive to building new relationships in the new area you live. I have a friend who just moved back to Denver after living in Seattle for about a year. He had some good opportunities there in the advertising field, but he said the people there tend not to be that friendly. I forgot what he called it, maybe something like the "Seattle Freeze". Personally, I would want to move to a place that not only has great economic opportunities, but where the people are friendly and laid back. Denver is one of the best places in the US for that IMO.
Detroit does have the cheap real estate going for it. That was one of the big reasons I came back here. I was hoping to land a local job and get a place in Midtown or Downtown. The job market is still not that good here unless you're an engineer or work in the auto industry. I just had an interview in Denver and hopefully it results in a solid job offer. I will happily move back to a place that offers a better, more diverse economy and people who want to welcome you into their homes with a big smile on their face.
And may you find your hearts desire ....as well as us all. Good luck with that.
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....as well as us all. Good luck with that.
