What would Detroit be like ten years from now? (Eastpointe: middle-class, section 8)

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by jonnynonos

I thought school was inconsequential.

K...trying to sucker punch me....no doubt. I clearly stated my case about education and the post you responded to in no way contradicts what I previously said....and you know that....hence the sucker punching.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

What??? What "days" was that ever true? Housing values collapse when market demand for those communities collapse. In most areas whites are the dominant demand force that determines market value because they are the vast majority, plus their incomes are higher. Hence, what collapses a market is the loss of white demand which often follows a community becoming "too black". Right now its too early to tell what the fate of East Pointe will be. Attitudes HAVE changed for the positive. However, I still see East Pointe becoming majority black in a couple of decades. Harper Woods may have already turned that corner.

It think what you are more likely to see is more neighborhood/cities becoming closer to the 75% white/25% black makeup of the metro area. Blacks who achieve middle- or upper-income status don't just move to the "border area" (where blackness turns to whiteness). They are moving way out into the formerly all-white suburbs. I have had black neighbors move out to Sterling Heights and whites move into the house the blacks left. So, it's not the wave of 100% whiteness changing to 100% blackness like it used to be.

You seem to be implying that blacks have not economic clout or that they can't possibly be expected to maintain a neighborhood, but that is not the case. Middle- and upper-income blacks live the same as middle- and upper-income whites, and middle- and upper-income whites respect that.

[WayneCounty]

Originally Posted by Retroit

It think what you are more likely to see is more neighborhood/cities becoming closer to the 75% white/25% black makeup of the metro area. Blacks who achieve middle- or upper-income status don't just move to the "border area" (where blackness turns to whiteness). They are moving way out into the formerly all-white suburbs. I have had black neighbors move out to Sterling Heights and whites move into the house the blacks left. So, it's not the wave of 100% whiteness changing to 100% blackness like it used to be.

You seem to be implying that blacks have not economic clout or that they can't possibly be expected to maintain a neighborhood, but that is not the case. Middle- and upper-income blacks live the same as middle- and upper-income whites, and middle- and upper-income whites respect that.

White flight has become evident in recent years in the blue collar suburbs bordering Detroit, including southern Warren and Harper Woods. I expect these areas will be poorer with a majority African American population by 2020. The poors blacks are now moving out of Detroit as quickly as everyone else.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Retroit

It think what you are more likely to see is more neighborhood/cities becoming closer to the 75% white/25% black makeup of the metro area. Blacks who achieve middle- or upper-income status don't just move to the "border area" (where blackness turns to whiteness). They are moving way out into the formerly all-white suburbs. I have had black neighbors move out to Sterling Heights and whites move into the house the blacks left. So, it's not the wave of 100% whiteness changing to 100% blackness like it used to be.

You seem to be implying that blacks have not economic clout or that they can't possibly be expected to maintain a neighborhood, but that is not the case. Middle- and upper-income blacks live the same as middle- and upper-income whites, and middle- and upper-income whites respect that.

And its important to have the respect of white folks to validate us. The city of Detroit had a large black middle class. It, at one time, had the highest rate of black home ownership rate in the nation. Despite that fact, whites still fled the city of Detroit. Way to show respect.

It is what it is.....when 75% of the market, who controls likely 85% of the income and wealth of an area, take interest in an area.....the market value will take a big jump. For historical reason, as well a being numerically deficient, black demand does not have quite the same influence on market values.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by WayneCounty

White flight has become evident in recent years in the blue collar suburbs bordering Detroit, including southern Warren and Harper Woods. I expect these areas will be poorer with a majority African American population by 2020. The poors blacks are now moving out of Detroit as quickly as everyone else.

That is incorrect. Poor blacks aren't moving out of Detroit as quickly as wealthy or middle-income blacks. The poorer of any race are generally the last to leave a neighborhood.

Also, your use of the term "white flight" is inappropriate, presuming you realize the implications of the term. The disparaging term implies that racist whites are trying to get away from blacks, and that is not the case. The racial demographics change largely for non-racial reasons. White children who grow up in white neighborhoods tend to move out of their homes and neighborhoods and out into areas where other young white people live, i.e. newer subdivisions. Empty nesters move out to bigger homes so they can have homes with enough room for visiting children and grandkids. Many white people rent out the home they raised their family in for income to support them in their dream home. So, "white flight" is an outdated cliché that doesn't represent the reality of upward housing mobility.

Another problem with the term is that it is used disproportionally for whites when in fact blacks move for the same reason, yet apparently when blacks move up it is justified, but when whites do it they are "turning their back" on the city. Never mind the fact that many whites tried to maintain the white majority in their neighborhoods, but were criticized for being racist for doing so. They can't win: it's always the White Guy's fault.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

... For historical reason...

Yes, I understand the history. I also understand that people's attitudes change. I know you have taken it upon yourself to preserve the nostalgic struggles of your ancestors, but most young people -- black and white -- are tired of your racially-infused rhetoric and have moved on.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Retroit

Yes, I understand the history. I also understand that people's attitudes change. I know you have taken it upon yourself to preserve the nostalgic struggles of your ancestors, but most young people -- black and white -- are tired of your racially-infused rhetoric and have moved on.

Yes they are....but being tired of something has no correlation to the validity of something. I have acknowledged that peoples attitudes have changed as well. Before most people were on board with the idea that Detroit would come back and whites would return to the city.......I was saying that 7 or 8 years ago. Before the economy collapsed in 2007.....I was saying that it would as early as 2002. I have not always been right, but I mostly am because I tend to only talk about things that I have studied extensively.

You might be right in a lot of respect Retroit. The issue these days could be tilted more towards class than race. However, the ugly truth about the past, which was about race, is that it has made blacks disproportionately poor in the present.....so even issues of class impact more heavily upon black people. Thus, regardless of the reason....Eastpointe is destined to be majority black in less than two decades for sure. Yes, in the micro details you will find whites moving into Eastpointe and blacks moving out, as you pointed out, but in the macro view there will be more whites moving out than in and more blacks moving in than out. This trend is what has already made about a third of Eastpointe black to this date....and that trend will continue. Your 75% 25% theory of all communities in the Metro is more that 100 years off.

If you and I am still kicking it on this earth during the next census, lets have a gentleman's bet that EastPointe will about half black, when 20 years ago it was about 2% black.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Retroit

That is incorrect. Poor blacks aren't moving out of Detroit as quickly as wealthy or middle-income blacks. The poorer of any race are generally the last to leave a neighborhood.

Also, your use of the term "white flight" is inappropriate, presuming you realize the implications of the term. The disparaging term implies that racist whites are trying to get away from blacks, and that is not the case. The racial demographics change largely for non-racial reasons. White children who grow up in white neighborhoods tend to move out of their homes and neighborhoods and out into areas where other young white people live, i.e. newer subdivisions. Empty nesters move out to bigger homes so they can have homes with enough room for visiting children and grandkids. Many white people rent out the home they raised their family in for income to support them in their dream home. So, "white flight" is an outdated cliché that doesn't represent the reality of upward housing mobility.

Another problem with the term is that it is used disproportionally for whites when in fact blacks move for the same reason, yet apparently when blacks move up it is justified, but when whites do it they are "turning their back" on the city. Never mind the fact that many whites tried to maintain the white majority in their neighborhoods, but were criticized for being racist for doing so. They can't win: it's always the White Guy's fault.

Yes....lets sanitize America's racial history to make no actions the result or consequence of racism. That is what people WANT to hear, whether its true or not, because they are tired of hearing about how the nations racist past shaped much of the present....as everything that exist EVOLVED into its current state and there has been over 300 years of evolution, in this nation, shaping its present.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Yes they are....but being tired of something has no correlation to the validity of something. I have acknowledged that peoples attitudes have changed as well. Before most people were on board with the idea that Detroit would come back and whites would return to the city.......I was saying that 7 or 8 years ago. Before the economy collapsed in 2007.....I was saying that it would as early as 2002. I have not always been right, but I mostly am because I tend to only talk about things that I have studied extensively.

You might be right in a lot of respect Retroit. The issue these days could be tilted more towards class than race. However, the ugly truth about the past, which was about race, is that it has made blacks disproportionately poor in the present.....so even issues of class impact more heavily upon black people. Thus, regardless of the reason....Eastpointe is destined to be majority black in less than two decades for sure. Yes, in the micro details you will find whites moving into Eastpointe and blacks moving out, as you pointed out, but in the macro view there will be more whites moving out than in and more blacks moving in than out. This trend is what has already made about a third of Eastpointe black to this date....and that trend will continue. Your 75% 25% theory of all communities in the Metro is more that 100 years off.

If you and I am still kicking it on this earth during the next census, lets have a gentleman's bet that EastPointe will about half black, when 20 years ago it was about 2% black.

I don't doubt that Eastpointe will become more black. What I disagree with is that Detroit is moving toward Johannesburg circa 1980 as you earlier contended. The blacks that are moving to Eastpointe aren't doing so because apartheid is kicking them out of Detroit. They are moving here because the United States is a great nation that has overcome her past injustices and African-Americans are beneficiaries of an economic system that rewards people for hard work and ability. We should be rejoicing that blacks are moving out of the ghetto and into decent suburbs. If all the ghettos of Detroit could be leveled due to lack of demand, that would be awesome.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Yes....lets sanitize America's racial history to make no actions the result or consequence of racism. That is what people WANT to hear, whether its true or not, because they are tired of hearing about how the nations racist past shaped much of the present....as everything that exist EVOLVED into its current state and there has been over 300 years of evolution, in this nation, shaping its present.

We don't have to sanitize the past, but we do have to sanitize the future. Contending that the racial segregation of Detroit's past is bound to continue because of some unalterable predisposition is not a valid argument. People's attitudes have changes drastically. It's only the Al Sharptons and those that benefit from racial animosity that what you to believe otherwise.