Failure for RTA? (Detroit, Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor: purchase, beach, rail)

[usroute10]

Originally Posted by Ummagumma

I would if post #63 on page 7 was yours.

I am sorry it was post #62 (but post #63 was mine as well)

http://www.city-data.com/forum/45491083-post62.html

[Ummagumma]

Originally Posted by usroute10

I am sorry it was post #62 (but post #63 was mine as well)

http://www.city-data.com/forum/45491083-post62.html

Ok, I'll answer your question as why didn't the middle class blacks leave along with whites. (That was the question, right ? I am on a phone so doing much post manipulation is a PITA).

Very simple - racism, which was still rampant in the late 60s and 70s, plus there was not as much black middle class as today.

Once the white racism and housing discrimination went down, Southfield and some surrounding areas turned into a predominantly middle class black city in about 15 years.

If there was no discrimination in house buying, you'd see the black middle class flee as fast as the whites did.

[usroute10]

Actually, the Southeast Michigan region did have rapid transit at one time, in the form of commuter rail. There was a Pontiac to Detroit commuter rail line and an Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter rail line. The Pontiac to Detroit line was in operation from 1931 to 1983, and I believe the Ann Arbor-Detroit line operated during that same time period, but ended operations a few years before the Pontiac line. Below are some photos of the rail line and an actual schedule (all photos courtesy of railroadfan.com and rrpicturearchives.net).


You can see the Ren Cen in the background


In the background, the train stop platform sign reads: GT Milwaukee Jct. GT stands for Grand Trunk, which was the railroad company that operated the line until the mid-1970's, when it was taken over by the Southeast Michigan Transit Authority (SEMTA), which was the precursor of SMART. (As you can see, SMART retained SEMTA's logo) Milwaukee Jct stands for Milwaukee-Junction, which was the industrial neighborhood east of New Center in which the commuter line stopped.

[usroute10]

(Not good news for Ummagumma!!)

Survey shows more support for RTA vote with education

"Edward Sarpolus, Target Insyght’s founder, said that with initial results so close to 50% and with the number of yes votes increasing after potential voters are given more information, millage supporters have an opportunity for success as long as they continue their education efforts such as community forums."

After the ballot language was provided, Macomb County’s numbers saw a dramatic shift with the undecided vote dropping to 12% and the yes vote jumping from 44% to 56%.

[TheProf]

Yes, Detroit had a very good commuter rail foundation up to the early 80s. I believe though the 2 lines had different downtown terminals. As the photo shows, the Pontiac line terminated at a surface station/yard just east of RenCen. I believe, from there, it traveled a mile or so east before turning to the NW into the Dequindre Cut (yes, it actually hosted passenger trains and not joggers!!!)... If it were me, I would go Back to the Future and reinstall commuter and/or rapid transit rails to Dequindre cut with station stops at 8 mile/fairgrounds, Gratiot/Eastern Market and Larned/Jefferson within the City...

I'm guessing the Ann Arbor line terminated at Michigan Central, but I'm not sure of that. One of you locals can confirm/refute this...

These routes would be a great foundation for regional rail, although I would electrify them and bury them in a subway from Michigan Central under Michigan Ave to Campus Martius then surfacing just beyond RenCen where the SEMTA/GT/Pontiac commuter trains terminated.

Good stuff usroute10!!

[usroute10]

Will Detroiters vote down a rapid transit plan today like they did in 1929?

"Toward the end of the decade, as the DSR reached its apex, voters were considering another plan to construct a subway line from the city to Ford Motor Co.’s Rouge Complex. It was actually supported by automakers, as described in an article for Progressive Planning magazine by Joel Batterman, policy director for Detroit faith-based group MOSES. But the 1929 proposal failed due to reasons all too familiar for the region."

Map of proposed subways of 1929 for lines underneath Woodward, Gratiot, and Michigan/Vernor



The plan was a $54 million bond proposal to build underground subway lines within the city limits, and surface running rapid lines outside of the city. The lines would be along Woodward, Gratiot, and Michigan Avenue through Corktown, and Vernor Highway through southwest Detroit to the Ford Rouge Plant in Dearborn


Below is a schematic of the subway lines to have been built underneath Woodward, Gratiot, and Michigan/Vernor under the 1929 subway plan




From Mr. Batterman's article:
“[The subway] met fierce opposition from the homeowners’ organizations that also held the line against neighborhood racial integration ... The subway would serve the automakers and downtown businesses, they argued, at the expense of the expanding middle class, which inhabited the city’s vast tracts of new single-family homes and no longer relied on Detroit’s extensive but slow streetcar system.”


How Detroit ended up with the worst public transit | Local News | Detroit Metro Times

Joel Batterman also wrote a comment to this article detailing Ford Motor Company's 1970 rapid transit plan, corroborating the above assertion.

"Ford itself had proposed a variety of rapid transit plans earlier in the company’s history, when most Ford workers relied on buses and streetcars to reach their plants. After shifting production to the River Rouge facility from Highland Park, Ford led an automaker-backed campaign for a Detroit-Dearborn subway that would have allowed easier access for Ford workers. However, most Detroit voters viewed this as a clear-cut case of corporate welfare – for a company which had abandoned Detroit, no less – and voted down the subway proposal in 1929."



The transition from 120-foot wide, arterials with underground subways in the city to the 208-foot wide, "Super Highways" with surface running rail lines in the middle lanes outside of the city.


(THIS IS WHY, in the suburbs, THE ARTERIALS LIKE WOODWARD, GRAND RIVER, GRATIOT, etc, ARE 8 LANE ROADS WITH EXTRA-WIDE MEDIANS IN THE MIDDLE BECAUSE THEY WERE BUILT WITH RAPID TRANSIT IN MIND)



The subway plan was rejected by a 80-20 margin.

[jonnynonos]

It failed by 18,000 votes.

[usroute10]

Well, it looks like Ummagumma will get his wish, the RTA proposal was narrowly rejected

RTA transit overhaul millage nears rejection

Since the 1980's, when a rapid transit system for the Detroit area would have been constructed with the $600 million pledged by Pres. Gerald Ford in 1976, they have built rapid transit lines in Charlotte, St. Louis, Portland, Seattle, Austin, Dallas, Houston, Salt Lake City, San Jose, Phoenix, Buffalo, Baltimore, Denver, San Diego, Los Angeles, Cleveland, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Miami, Norfolk, Pittsburgh, and Sacramento.

This is in addition to the cities that had rapid transit prior to the '80's - NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, San Francisco, Washington, DC and Atlanta.

But Detroit won't be joining that group of cities anytime soon. SO. LAME.

[Geo-Aggie]

And this is what happens when you have a garbage candidate headlining the liberal ticket, one that doesn't entice liberal voters out to the polls, while a maligning demagogue runs as the headline on the conservative ticket. Also, correct me if I'm wrong here, but straight party ticket voting hurts these kinds of proposals as this was technically not a partisan issue, so it doesn't get a vote based on party, and those who check one box and send it in (typically Democrats in Southeast Michigan) don't have their voice heard.

I'm super unimpressed with Michigan today. This coupled with the added job insecurity (I work in the environmental sector) really makes me question buying a house in the area. If I wanted to relocate somewhere that was culturally like the South, I'd have moved to the South.

[belleislerunner]

Don't lost heart - it will come with time.

Even Atlanta lost a huge mass transit plan two years ago and they revamped and came back stronger.

It mean's were close - we just didn't have the right plan yet to get us there.