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I don’t know if you realized that black militancy was alive and well ALL OVER AMERICA, as a reaction to racial oppression, in the 60’s and early 70’s. “Kill whity” signs were no more endemic to or unique to Detroit than black people were back then. Los Angeles also had the Watts riots, but whites did not flee that city in mass like they did in Detroit. Yes, Detroit had a large middle class, but so did Chicago. Chicago had steel mills and other high paying Union factory jobs….that is why people flocked to that city in mass. What whites in Chicago did was that they drew the line within the city. The North side was their side of town and the South and West sides were left to blacks. In Detroit, whites abandoned the city completely and bank redlining and real estate agents conspired to keep the suburbs white and blacks in Detroit... and when that did not work they were threatened and intimidated when they attempted to move into certain suburbs. Both Chicago and the Detroit area are the two most segregated areas in the country and that segregation was born from white racism and where they drew their lines in the sand. In Chicago they drew that line within the city but in Detroit they drew the line between city and suburb...largely because Detroit a a fiery black mayor named Coleman Young.
You see Detroit is a failure by white standards of living. Nationally, blacks rates of unemployment is twice that of whites, black rates of poverty is 3 times that of whites, black rates of wealth are 10 times less than whites. These are NATIONAL statistics. If you compare what goes on in Detroit, a city that is about 90% black, you will find that the metrics are not that far off the norm for black America as a whole. However, most major cities in America have a lot more white residents, with their higher incomes, higher wealth, lower poverty and the like to offset the Detroit like problems that manifest in those cities black communities. So I don’t see Detroit as a failed city…….I see it as a microcosm of black America. If you want to know the state of black America…….Detroit is a window into that reality. I enjoy Detroit better than I do most cities, when it comes to the black community. There are lots of black businesses, there are lots of soul food restaurants, there are a ton of black radio stations, there are African American museums, there are beautiful black women everywhere…….I can’t find this in concentration anywhere like I can find it in Detroit. The city I live in now is Majority white and always ranks as one of the best places to live in America…..yet….as an African American…….I am really not impressed with it because it offers little for me culturally, which is the same reason most whites don’t find Detroit attractive.
I don’t know if you realized that black militancy was alive and well ALL OVER AMERICA, as a reaction to racial oppression, in the 60’s and early 70’s. “Kill whity” signs were no more endemic to or unique to Detroit than black people were back then. Los Angeles also had the Watts riots, but whites did not flee that city in mass like they did in Detroit. Yes, Detroit had a large middle class, but so did Chicago. Chicago had steel mills and other high paying Union factory jobs….that is why people flocked to that city in mass. What whites in Chicago did was that they drew the line within the city. The North side was their side of town and the South and West sides were left to blacks. In Detroit, whites abandoned the city completely and bank redlining and real estate agents conspired to keep the suburbs white and blacks in Detroit... and when that did not work they were threatened and intimidated when they attempted to move into certain suburbs. Both Chicago and the Detroit area are the two most segregated areas in the country and that segregation was born from white racism and where they drew their lines in the sand. In Chicago they drew that line within the city but in Detroit they drew the line between city and suburb...largely because Detroit a a fiery black mayor named Coleman Young.
You see Detroit is a failure by white standards of living. Nationally, blacks rates of unemployment is twice that of whites, black rates of poverty is 3 times that of whites, black rates of wealth are 10 times less than whites. These are NATIONAL statistics. If you compare what goes on in Detroit, a city that is about 90% black, you will find that the metrics are not that far off the norm for black America as a whole. However, most major cities in America have a lot more white residents, with their higher incomes, higher wealth, lower poverty and the like to offset the Detroit like problems that manifest in those cities black communities. So I don’t see Detroit as a failed city…….I see it as a microcosm of black America. If you want to know the state of black America…….Detroit is a window into that reality. I enjoy Detroit better than I do most cities, when it comes to the black community. There are lots of black businesses, there are lots of soul food restaurants, there are a ton of black radio stations, there are African American museums, there are beautiful black women everywhere…….I can’t find this in concentration anywhere like I can find it in Detroit. The city I live in now is Majority white and always ranks as one of the best places to live in America…..yet….as an African American…….I am really not impressed with it because it offers little for me culturally, which is the same reason most whites don’t find Detroit attractive.
Detroit is not just a failure according to white standards, it is a failure according to ALL standards. Atlanta has a huge black population, but it does not top all the top crime lists, poverty lists. Im reasonably sure that white people and black people get along much better in a sucessful city like Atlanta. Something obviously went terribly wrong in Detroit. The massive black insurection of 1967 poisoned black-white relations in Michigan decades. You mentioned other riots, but none of those were as large or destructive as Detroits. Large sections of the city were severely damaged, federal troops were used to restore order. The fact that I was raised where I was, and live today where I do is because of those riots, and the black militancy that you yourself acknowlege having existed then. Had there been no riots, my parents would have raised me in the town I was born in, Detroit Michigan. Even to this day my parents are depressed by the destruction of thier hometown. Many of their friends feel the same way. It is sad to listen to them talk about how it used to be.
Detroit is not just a failure according to white standards, it is a failure according to ALL standards. Atlanta has a huge black population, but it does not top all the top crime lists, poverty lists. Im reasonably sure that white people and black people get along much better in a sucessful city like Atlanta. Something obviously went terribly wrong in Detroit. The massive black insurection of 1967 poisoned black-white relations in Michigan decades. You mentioned other riots, but none of those were as large or destructive as Detroits. Large sections of the city were severely damaged, federal troops were used to restore order. The fact that I was raised where I was, and live today where I do is because of those riots, and the black militancy that you yourself acknowlege having existed then. Had there been no riots, my parents would have raised me in the town I was born in, Detroit Michigan. Even to this day my parents are depressed by the destruction of thier hometown. Many of their friends feel the same way. It is sad to listen to them talk about how it used to be.
From 1999 to 2004 Atlanta had a higher crime rate than Detroit. It was the worst in the country. *Gasp* you mean Detroit isn't the worst in country? OMG No way.
If you stick to the right parts of the city, you'll find many parts of Detroit are as nice and as safe as some of the nicest and safest parts of New York or Chicago
Detroit is not just a failure according to white standards, it is a failure according to ALL standards. Atlanta has a huge black population, but it does not top all the top crime lists, poverty lists. Im reasonably sure that white people and black people get along much better in a sucessful city like Atlanta. Something obviously went terribly wrong in Detroit. The massive black insurection of 1967 poisoned black-white relations in Michigan decades. You mentioned other riots, but none of those were as large or destructive as Detroits. Large sections of the city were severely damaged, federal troops were used to restore order. The fact that I was raised where I was, and live today where I do is because of those riots, and the black militancy that you yourself acknowlege having existed then. Had there been no riots, my parents would have raised me in the town I was born in, Detroit Michigan. Even to this day my parents are depressed by the destruction of thier hometown. Many of their friends feel the same way. It is sad to listen to them talk about how it used to be.
I attended college in Atlanta for a couple of years. You obviously know not of what you speak. Atlanta has topped detroit many years, since the 70's, in various crime catagories, including overall and murder. In the South, where were whites going to flee too when blacks in the South already lived in the rural suburban areas and not just the cities like they did up North?. Suburban Atlatnta has been about 20% black forever....because blacks lived in areas that the metropolitan area grew out towards...already. Whites have lived around blacks for a long time in the South.....they were seperated socially, but not residentially, often.
The biggest thing that I noticed that was different from the Detroit area and the Atlanta area is that everyone in Atlanta seemed to work for the convention and visitors Bureau and was always talking UP the city and area, despite crime and whatever. That was the complete opposite of my experience in the Detroit area. The city was always TALKED down. Altantans were full of embellishment and hyperbole about its city from the media to the people.....and guess what....it became a self fullfilling prophecy. Detroit did the same thing but in reverse....embellished its problems as if they were endemic to Detroit....like crime and violence. That also became a self fullfilling prohecy. Its certain working case study in the power of suggestion.
Also....do you recall the history of the Watts riot in LA? That was just as big as the Detroit riots.
I attended college in Atlanta for a couple of years. You obviously know not of what you speak. Atlanta has topped detroit many years, since the 70's, in various crime catagories, including overall and murder. In the South, where were whites going to flee too when blacks in the South already lived in the rural suburban areas and not just the cities like they did up North?. Suburban Atlatnta has been about 20% black forever....because blacks lived in areas that the metropolitan area grew out towards...already. Whites have lived around blacks for a long time in the South.....they were seperated socially, but not residentially, often.
The biggest thing that I noticed that was different from the Detroit area and the Atlanta area is that everyone in Atlanta seemed to work for the convention and visitors Bureau and was always talking UP the city and area, despite crime and whatever. That was the complete opposite of my experience in the Detroit area. The city was always TALKED down. Altantans were full of embellishment and hyperbole about its city from the media to the people.....and guess what....it became a self fullfilling prophecy. Detroit did the same thing but in reverse....embellished its problems as if they were endemic to Detroit....like crime and violence. That also became a self fullfilling prohecy. Its certain working case study in the power of suggestion.
Also....do you recall the history of the Watts riot in LA? That was just as big as the Detroit riots.
THe major difference between Atlanta and Detroit is the general appearance of the city, and the fact that large portions of it (Atlanta) are actually nice. There is more economic life to the city. Does it have alot of crime, well all big cities do. Detroit however just appears to take that to a whole new level. Detroit literaly packed up and moved to the suburbs, taking the jobs, wealth and everything nice with them. The real Detroit is the ring around the city. This is where the life is, where people live and work. Only Downtown Detroit has anything left in it. People drive in from afar, watch the baseball game and hightail it home. Of course all cities have suburban sprall as well, but nowhere is it as prevailant as it is in southeast Michigan. No where can you find a place where the central city is completly abandoned by the middle class. You cannot find many people who are willing to put up with the crime, violence and ghetto atmosphere that comes with living in Detroit. Most healthy cities have suburbs, but also have alot of middle class, and upper middle class neighborhoods within the city. Detroit has very few neighborhoods that are anything but ghetto. Until the crime is brought under control, and city goverment regains some level of legitimacy and respect, no one will want to take a chance on Detroit. Kwame is gone, and Bing seems much better so I guess that is a good first step. You say we like to berate the city and make it look bad. I dont want it to be the way it is, it hurts everyone in Michigan to have to pay for Detroits problems, and it chases away investment from the state. I would also love to be able to go down there with my family and have a nice city to visit. People in Illinois have Chicago, people in Ga have Atlanta. It would be nice if the people of Michigan had a nice city to call its own as well. Believe me, you are wrong when you suggest we enjoy running it down or enjoy seeing it the way it is. Most of us are embarassed of it, or just plain sad to see the way it has turned out there. Maybe instead of the blame game, everyone should think of ways to fix it, restore order and return jobs to the area.
THe major difference between Atlanta and Detroit is the general appearance of the city, and the fact that large portions of it (Atlanta) are actually nice. There is more economic life to the city. Does it have alot of crime, well all big cities do. Detroit however just appears to take that to a whole new level. Detroit literaly packed up and moved to the suburbs, taking the jobs, wealth and everything nice with them. The real Detroit is the ring around the city. This is where the life is, where people live and work. Only Downtown Detroit has anything left in it. People drive in from afar, watch the baseball game and hightail it home. Of course all cities have suburban sprall as well, but nowhere is it as prevailant as it is in southeast Michigan. No where can you find a place where the central city is completly abandoned by the middle class. You cannot find many people who are willing to put up with the crime, violence and ghetto atmosphere that comes with living in Detroit. Most healthy cities have suburbs, but also have alot of middle class, and upper middle class neighborhoods within the city. Detroit has very few neighborhoods that are anything but ghetto. Until the crime is brought under control, and city goverment regains some level of legitimacy and respect, no one will want to take a chance on Detroit. Kwame is gone, and Bing seems much better so I guess that is a good first step. You say we like to berate the city and make it look bad. I dont want it to be the way it is, it hurts everyone in Michigan to have to pay for Detroits problems, and it chases away investment from the state. I would also love to be able to go down there with my family and have a nice city to visit. People in Illinois have Chicago, people in Ga have Atlanta. It would be nice if the people of Michigan had a nice city to call its own as well. Believe me, you are wrong when you suggest we enjoy running it down or enjoy seeing it the way it is. Most of us are embarassed of it, or just plain sad to see the way it has turned out there. Maybe instead of the blame game, everyone should think of ways to fix it, restore order and return jobs to the area.
I don't dispute any of those things that you observed. You don't go from 2 million people to 800,000 without a lot of decay and abandonment. Did atlanta loose 60% of its popopulation? No! That is why Atlanta looks better and is more in tact than Detroit.
When you go to the doctor for a sickness.....do you tell your doctor to not play the "Blame game"? The "Blame" is the result of the "diagnosis". Do people not want the root of their sickness or disease to be Blamed on something? Its ONLY after the BLAME has been determined that an EFFECTIVE treatment can be prescribed. Thats no different than the sickness that is plauging the city of Detroit. The city lost too many white blood cells....so to speak. Now it has a weak imune system. The solution is to restore the proper white blood cell count....but you cannot do that until you address the reason the white blood cells became so low in the first place. The reason that the white blood cells are not returning to a healthy level is the SAME reason that they became so low. Without dealing with that reason.....Detroit will always be anemic, relative to cities with higher white blood cell percentages.
I don't dispute any of those things that you observed. You don't go from 2 million people to 800,000 without a lot of decay and abandonment. Did atlanta loose 60% of its popopulation? No! That is why Atlanta looks better and is more in tact than Detroit.
When you go to the doctor for a sickness.....do you tell your doctor to not play the "Blame game"? The "Blame" is the result of the "diagnosis". Do people not want the root of their sickness or disease to be Blamed on something? Its ONLY after the BLAME has been determined that an EFFECTIVE treatment can be prescribed. Thats no different than the sickness that is plauging the city of Detroit. The city lost too many white blood cells....so to speak. Now it has a weak imune system. The solution is to restore the proper white blood cell count....but you cannot do that until you address the reason the white blood cells became so low in the first place. The reason that the white blood cells are not returning to a healthy level is the SAME reason that they became so low. Without dealing with that reason.....Detroit will always be anemic, relative to cities with higher white blood cell percentages.
Yes your right, lots of white people left and that did not help Detroit. Im guessing that you believe they left simply because they are racist and hate black people. There may be a few that fit that category, but most left because they did not want to deal with Detroits crime, corruption and violence. That does not make them bad people. White people are not a largely racist group, as last years election should prove. Many whites voted for Obama simply because they felt they were taking part in ending the era of racial strife in this nation. Many whites were nearly as happy to see a black president as black people were. Years ago being black would prevent you from being president, I believe Obama was elected largely because he is black. You are suggesting that it would be good for Detroit for white people to return. My first question to you would be, are they welcome to return. There is plenty of black racism in Detroit, or has that changed? If I were to move into a black Detroit neighborhood would I be welcome? Detroit also needs to change its ways if there is a real desire for anyone to move back there black or white. (lots of blacks left for the burbs too remember) There must be a tough stance on crime, the streets need to be much safer. This would be a tough one for the people in Detroit, as they seem to protect thier own from police investigations and prosecution. There must be a desire in the hearts of the people to see thier own streets cleaned up. The other major problem that keeps anyone from wanting to live in Detroit is its appearance. Much of it is literaly a ruin, and the rest is near ruin. The new mayor has suggested cutting off services to areas that have become largely abandoned. From what I read, those who remained would be bought out and the vacant land cleared of remaining structures and the area would become parks or even farm land. This is a great idea, it would be a good start at removing some of the blight. Consolidating the remaining people in the areas of the city where they can be serviced better, policed better is a great idea. It would also raise the value of the remaining homes. Tax breaks for new residents and businesses would be another way to attract people to the city. It is possible to begin the process of restoring some of Detroit, but im not sure the political will is there to do what needs to be done. Everyone from the politicians, the people of Detroit, the people in the suburbs, and even those in the outlying areas of the state need to stop being politically correct and start to honestly tackle the real problems that exist there. This means getting really tough on the criminals, and physically tearing down the blighted areas. The solutions may anger some, may offend others but in the end everyone will be better off if major progress was made in Detroit. If you seriously want white people (and others too) to take a real interest in Detroit again, then some of the actions I listed would get the attention of the rest of the state. Believe me, everyone wants to see Detroit cleaned up. We are all sick of hearing our state dragged through the mud. I hope Bing is the man to clean up Detroit.
The majority of Northern cities in America saw a reduction of t heir principle cities population, even cities that had comfortable white majorities. People moving from the cities to the suburbs were a general trend from the 60’s to 2000. People wanted bigger lots, attached garages, 2 car garages and many amenities that the city did not offer. So no, I don’t believe that the ONLY reason whites moved from cities to suburbs was due to racism. I like to believe that I am more intelligent and honest than that. Hence, what I am saying is that in Detroit, race and racism played a major role that exacerbated a national trend of suburbanization.
You continue to mention crime, corruption and violence as the overwhelming drive of whites from the city. Again, Chicago is a city with a long mob history, it is also a city with a long history of political corruption and it has long been a city with notorious street gangs. If your theory was correct, that these factors drive away whites from a city, then why are not Chicago racial demographics like Detroit’s? Please, do not repeat that whites in Chicago were too poor to move to the suburbs because they did not have automobile jobs like Detroit. Chicago has the GOLD COAST….the magnificent mile and all kind of wealthy and middle class white folks living in the city who could have easily afforded to live in the suburbs. Hence, the evidence seems to suggest that it is not crime, corruption and violence that drive whites nearly completely from a city, but rather, the color of the crime, corruption and violence.
To say that white people are not a largely racist group in this era where not even members of historical “hate” groups view themselves as racist is meaningless. I think the problem is that whites don’t know what racism is and they define it in a way that excludes an indictment of them, their thinking and behavior. It appears to me that whites see racism as an EMOTION, such as hate. Hence, to be a racist means to be invested in negative emotions towards blacks. Well, that is indeed a form of racism or prejudice, but the roots of racism are not emotions but RATIONALIZATIONS of a racial hierarchy in which whites are above blacks. You see, whites rationalize that if something is true, then the belief cannot be racist and the negative things that they note about black people are simply truisms and not racism.
If it is a truism that blacks are more criminal, more corrupt, more violent, lazier and more irresponsible than whites, then one HAS to believe that blacks are INFERIOR to whites. You cannot point out so many reasons, as you do, that whites are justified in their views of black people in general and that it’s rooted in TRUISMS and not RACISM, without the logical rational conclusion being black inferiority which is the foundation or has the corollary of white supremacy (at least relative to blacks). Of course, whites also dismiss the notion and argument that these behaviors and conditions in blacks are in anyway the consequence of the clear history of racial oppression in this nation against black, so there is no causation left other than racial inferiority.
Now, the fact that white people voted for Obama simply represents that people are willing to grant exception and often do. Racism is not how you feel about an individual, but rather, how you feel about a GROUP. Obama is a person who is half white and was raised by whites. During the campaign, the only part of his family that was highlighted was his white side….and that was on purpose. Furthermore, Obama shunned the civil rights community and the traditional black agenda, which further made him more palatable to whites. You see, if you can get one black person to stymie the agenda of 40 million black people, even if you don’t really care for black people, you can use that black person as a tactic in a larger strategy to undermine the civil rights movement and leaders like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and black that whites seen as agitators. You are also correct that whites were trying to prove something to themselves. They were trying to convince themselves that they are not racist…..so they voted for him. Voting for Obama then becomes a person “I am not a racist” membership card that one usually joined by having a ‘best friend” who is black.
The fallacy of composition is when one assumes that what is true of the whole is true of all its parts and what is true of a part is thus true for the whole. Just because you believe that the Detroit lions suck does not mean that you will not grant exception for a player on the team and acknowledge that they are good. In reverse, people recognize that not every player on a great team is a great player. So the argument that because people voted for Obama that such proves how whites feel about blacks…..is totally untenable.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-13-2010 at 10:51 AM..
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