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umm, they could have used a picture of the dog when she was alive (she was someone's pet after all). whenever a dog is attacked and killed by a pit bull, the news always puts up a pic of the victim (alive of course), yet it's damned near impossible for the media to post a pic of the attacker (and when they do, most of the time people complain b/c the dog isn't even a pit bull as claimed)
My neighbor's pit bull attacked a neighbor's dog. Local news arrived. My neighbor feels so bad that she doesn't want to talk to the media. If my dog did something so bad, I wouldn't want the picture to be posted everywhere.
My neighbor is a good dog owner. The pit bull was thrown out a moving car and landed in front of her. She took the dog in and kept a watchful eye. The dog always acts aggressively towards other dogs. One day, when her 14 year old daughter came home and forgot to close the door, the pit bull saw someone with a dog .... If I ask her to give me a picture so you can tell me whether it is a real pit bull, I think she will throw me out of her home. But she is a very very good dog owner and person. She helps elderly in the community to walk their dogs. She walks, trains and tries to socialize the pitbull all the time. We don't know what kind of abuse the pitbull has suffered prior to be rescued. If it is another breed, will the dog be aggressive too?
With this being said, my GSD also has a good friend who is a pure breed red nose pitbull. She plays with my GSD all the time, very playful.
i think your post is very nicely balanced instead of the typical all or nothing/my way or the highway. we all need to try to understand both sides and also always be open to the possibility that mistakes (leaving the door open) happen all the time even to good owners and not say things like "i absolutely know that my dog would never ever hurt anyone". i dont know why the majority of pit bull owners on this board seem to discount/deny anything negative about pit bulls. it's great to love your dog but that doesnt mean that you should defend a pit bull that has attacked. i know, i know, "it is the owner's fault, not the dog" some always say which translates to me that the dog is not responsible for it's actions at all. a dog certainly has a mind of it's own and should be held accountable just as much as the owner. what about the good owners (the ones who have done absolutely everything correctly in training according to you) whose dogs suddenly out of the blue (i know some say there is always a reason) attack. is it still the owners fault?
animals are wild in my opinion (even the domesticated ones) and cannot be trusted. i hope those of you who know your dogs and say they would never ever do anything like attack will keep an open mind to the possibility that no matter how you train and socialize that sometimes things happen and there isn't a logical explanation for absolutely everything. that is all im hoping for, for the pit bull owners on this board to keep an open mind instead of immediately throwing out the same excuses over and over again.
i have noticed many cute and funny pictures of pit bulls on the threads that speak of pit bull attacks. i can understand you wanting to defend the breed. what doesnt seem right though is to post them in reaction to tragic stories.
captions under these photos always seem to be in a joking manner and it puzzles me that some of you would turn tragedy into a joke. it reminds me of when kids on the playground laugh if another kid gets hurt.
If the focus SHOULD be on the owner (and I agree on this) not the breed then your friends who don't abide by the laws, as in 'no license' or not specific 'pb license' are breaking the law and NOT responsible owners. Everyone should be aware of their by-laws and ordinances. Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense to the court, albeit: the JUDGE. So if your pals get fined, too damn bad.
You seen to think that it's ok not to license their pb. Owners who pick and choose what laws they comply with are not responsible owners. I'd be afraid not to abide by the law, and it is easily found on the Boston city website. Do I like the laws(s)? NO, but I would comply.
I always conduct my personal and business life, or anything tractable, by the law.
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Quote:
My neighbor is a good dog owner. The pit bull was thrown out a moving car and landed in front of her. She took the dog in and kept a watchful eye. The dog always acts aggressively towards other dogs. One day, when her 14 year old daughter came home and forgot to close the door, the pit bull saw someone with a dog .... If I ask her to give me a picture so you can tell me whether it is a real pit bull, I think she will throw me out of her home. But she is a very very good dog owner and person. She helps elderly in the community to walk their dogs. She walks, trains and tries to socialize the pitbull all the time. We don't know what kind of abuse the pitbull has suffered prior to be rescued. If it is another breed, will the dog be aggressive too?
This is a responsible owner in your eyes? It doesn't matter how much she helps other people, or if she donates money and time to the cancer fund, elderly or a food panty, the bottom line will be sooner or later the police will be at her door, and her HO will drop her policy. And she'll be personally sued not to mention someone will be hurt or worse.
Your friend with the pb plays nice with your GSD but NOT all dogs play nice.
If the focus SHOULD be on the owner (and I agree on this) not the breed then your friends who don't abide by the laws, as in 'no license' or not specific 'pb license' are breaking the law and NOT responsible owners. Everyone should be aware of their by-laws and ordinances. Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defense to the court, albeit: the JUDGE. So if your pals get fined, too damn bad.
You seen to think that it's ok not to license their pb. Owners who pick and choose what laws they comply with are not responsible owners. I'd be afraid not to abide by the law, and it is easily found on the Boston city website. Do I like the laws(s)? NO, but I would comply.
I always conduct my personal and business life, or anything tractable, by the law.
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This is a responsible owner in your eyes? It doesn't matter how much she helps other people, or if she donates money and time to the cancer fund, elderly or a food panty, the bottom line will be sooner or later the police will be at her door, and her HO will drop her policy. And she'll be personally sued not to mention someone will be hurt or worse.
Your friend with the pb plays nice with your GSD but NOT all dogs play nice.
You live by the law, and that's great! but if every law was followed by 100% of citizens 100% of the time, laws would be static and many questionable laws would still exist (Jim Crow for an extreme example). it takes people w/ strong convictions that certain laws are unfair/wrong and to go against them (peacefully) in order to bring about change.
Like I said, the Boston BSL is almost never enforced, so my previous LL isn't too worried. He is NOT a bad owner for not wanting to go along w/ BS BSL. this BSL, like every other BSL, unfairly targets good owners based on their choice of breed. the difference between $6 and $50 is HUGE and in honest truth, not many people can afford the $50 (and don't go onto the whole "if they can't afford $50, they can't afford a dog" route. if someone is accustomed to paying $6 for their dog's license, they may not be able to budget in that extra $44/yr that's now required of them. for a non pit dog that lives for 12 years, that's about $72; for a pit owner, that would jump up to $600 over 12 years. huge difference. and the city as far as I know, has done NOTHING to help alleviate these costs for low income owners)
I grew up in the roughest neighborhoods of Boston, places w/ neglectful dog ownership and poverty unfortunately went hand in hand together. the people who are bad owners could care less about the BSL and continue to breed, neglect, and fight their pits. the people who are good owners, but may not be able to afford the steep license fee, signage, fencing, whatever, are being punished. You say these laws are easy to find, but that's because you have access to the Internet (not everyone has the luxury of just going to a website whenever they need info). I can tell you right now that, other than some initial news coverage when the BSL first went into effect, NOTHING was done in Boston's low income, high pit bull areas to educate owners on the BSL! no flyers, no community meetings, no AC officer going door to door to talk w/ pit owners. I sincerely doubt most pit owners, especially the ones w/ limited English, income, and/or little knowledge of BSLs, even know about the BSL!
of course, since the BSL is hardly enforced, I guess it doesn't matter, it's just more red tape for good owners to go through. yes, many good, caring pit owners are either just refusing to follow the BSL out of principle (go to Boston's most famous park, the Common, and see how many pits go unmuzzled in front of police. walk down any street and try to count how many pits you do see w/ muzzles. And no one really cares if a dog is licensed or not unless it gets lost or bites someone; my dog was never licensed in the 9 years I had her), or just end up moving to nearby cities like Cambridge, where there are no BSLs. it really is just a useless, pointless law that doesn't even target the problem
i think your post is very nicely balanced instead of the typical all or nothing/my way or the highway. we all need to try to understand both sides and also always be open to the possibility that mistakes (leaving the door open) happen all the time even to good owners and not say things like "i absolutely know that my dog would never ever hurt anyone".
IMO, there are no absolutes when it comes to animals. no one can be 100% sure what their pet will or won't do. but many owners feel 99% sure about their pets and hope they aren't proven wrong by that 1%
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy
i dont know why the majority of pit bull owners on this board seem to discount/deny anything negative about pit bulls.
pit owners are reminded every day about all the negatives associated w/ pits. My former roommate had a boxer mix and was asked on every walk by another neighbor walking his dog why would she own such a vicious breed as a pit bull. I doubt people are discounting the negatives, but rather trying to educate by focusing on the positive (and there's far more positive than negative)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy
it's great to love your dog but that doesnt mean that you should defend a pit bull that has attacked. i know, i know, "it is the owner's fault, not the dog" some always say which translates to me that the dog is not responsible for it's actions at all. a dog certainly has a mind of it's own and should be held accountable just as much as the owner. what about the good owners (the ones who have done absolutely everything correctly in training according to you) whose dogs suddenly out of the blue (i know some say there is always a reason) attack. is it still the owners fault?
if a dog, regardless of breed, really did attack out of the blue, with no signs, that's a sign of illness, and likely not the owner's fault. there are tons of materials out in the world that gives info on dog language, simple cues dogs give that determine their moods. if you know the signs, then you'll see few bites truly come out of the blue
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy
animals are wild in my opinion (even the domesticated ones) and cannot be trusted.
YEP, agree w/ this one fully. I wouldn't leave a small baby alone w/ any pit bull, lab, pomeranian, chihuahua puppy, cat, kitten, baby bunny, hamster, whatever! yet people DO leave tiny infants alone w/ "safe" breeds then seem SHOCKED when their pet attacks or even kills the child (there was a recent story about a baby boy in IL whose genitals were chewed off by a dachshund. the baby had been left alone w/ the dog in another room. this type of story isn't uncommon. people that would hesitate to leave a baby alone w/ a pit wouldn't hesitate to do so if the dog was a pug or lab or yorkie).
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy
i hope those of you who know your dogs and say they would never ever do anything like attack will keep an open mind to the possibility that no matter how you train and socialize that sometimes things happen and there isn't a logical explanation for absolutely everything.
the possibility decreases drastically when the dog is neutered, socialized, and trained to the point where such dogs rarely bite ( try finding a dog bite report where the dog was neutered, socialized from infant hood, properly trained, not neglected, not tied up in some yard, or not being abused or poked at). is it possible for a dog to just bite for no (medical, emotional) reason whatsoever? sure, possibly, but if so, it isn't restricted to one breed
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy
that is all im hoping for, for the pit bull owners on this board to keep an open mind instead of immediately throwing out the same excuses over and over again.
I've found that the pit owners I've known to be the most open minded dog owners of all. they must constantly defend their choice of dog to random strangers that spout lies and half truths. they aren't throwing out "excuses', they are just going over the facts, over, and over, and over again
i have noticed many cute and funny pictures of pit bulls on the threads that speak of pit bull attacks. i can understand you wanting to defend the breed. what doesnt seem right though is to post them in reaction to tragic stories.captions under these photos always seem to be in a joking manner and it puzzles me that some of you would turn tragedy into a joke. it reminds me of when kids on the playground laugh if another kid gets hurt.
I'm gonna have to step in here. Nicolepsy, I have not read ONE SINGLE post here on ~any~ of the dog threads where an APBT owner turns some tragic story of an attack into a joke.
The day I read a post like this fictitious one: "The story is tragic, now here is a pic of my wolfie with his chew toy. See him rip the head off like he did the mailman?" ...would result in every dog owner coming out with both barrels against said innapropiate post.
If someone posts pics of their dogs, it is to show you, and the rest of us who fear APBT, that pit bulls are demonized by the media and the uninformed. It is common sense that negligent and/or gangster-thug owners want pits for the wrong reasons and hence the animal behaves innapropiately.
Nicolepsy, your first post on this thread ~~some on this board will say it was probably a yappy chihuahua~~ was sarcastic, but voices your issues against some slight somewhere and now you are out to voice it, why not start a thread on what you feel is innapropiate reactions to tragic pit bull attack stories?
Why don't you just take issue with a specific post and owner instead of using this thread to air it out against "some on this forum" which is like me saying "some white people blah blah" or some other vague innuendo.
You live by the law, and that's great! but if every law was followed by 100% of citizens 100% of the time, laws would be static and many questionable laws would still exist (Jim Crow for an extreme example). it takes people w/ strong convictions that certain laws are unfair/wrong and to go against them (peacefully) in order to bring about change.
I said I live by the law of anything traceable, and my dogs not being properly licensed, no matter how questionable & ridiculous the law may seem is traceable.
No matter how many neighbors turn a blind eye, if something happened they would be the first to say, 'I knew something would happen, ' or 'that person has had those dogs for years'. And if cops at the Common are turning a blind eye, it only takes one cop who doesn't. Just like the RT128 stupid speed limit of 55, most cops don't care if your going 70, but here and there one does, and your held accountable. $$$$
It's also doubtful your friend has those dogs listed on his HO insurance. Know what can happen then? It's called culpability. The media, insurance company, and police (IF something happened and one of the dogs bit someone) will put it all together. Not licensed, $$$, not listed on insurance, and the homeowner will not only be criminally responsible but a civil suit will ensue and good old HO will not fight it. More $$$
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Like I said, the Boston BSL is almost never enforced, so my previous LL isn't too worried. He is NOT a bad owner for not wanting to go along w/ BS BSL. this BSL, like every other BSL, unfairly targets good owners based on their choice of breed. the difference between $6 and $50 is HUGE and in honest truth, not many people can afford the $50 (and don't go onto the whole "if they can't afford $50, they can't afford a dog" route. if someone is accustomed to paying $6 for their dog's license, they may not be able to budget in that extra $44/yr that's now required of them. for a non pit dog that lives for 12 years, that's about $72; for a pit owner, that would jump up to $600 over 12 years. huge difference. and the city as far as I know, has done NOTHING to help alleviate these costs for low income owners)
I never said BAD owner, I said not responsible.
Quote:
I grew up in the roughest neighborhoods of Boston, places w/ neglectful dog ownership and poverty unfortunately went hand in hand together. the people who are bad owners could care less about the BSL and continue to breed, neglect, and fight their pits. the people who are good owners, but may not be able to afford the steep license fee, signage, fencing, whatever, are being punished. You say these laws are easy to find, but that's because you have access to the Internet (not everyone has the luxury of just going to a website whenever they need info). I can tell you right now that, other than some initial news coverage when the BSL first went into effect, NOTHING was done in Boston's low income, high pit bull areas to educate owners on the BSL! no flyers, no community meetings, no AC officer going door to door to talk w/ pit owners. I sincerely doubt most pit owners, especially the ones w/ limited English, income, and/or little knowledge of BSLs, even know about the BSL!
Again, ignorance is not a legal defense to the court. And if persons don't have access to the Internet, they need to know the law before getting the dog JUST LIKE you need to know the laws of (registration, insurance & excise taxes etc..) before buying a vehicle.
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of course, since the BSL is hardly enforced, I guess it doesn't matter, it's just more red tape for good owners to go through. yes, many good, caring pit owners are either just refusing to follow the BSL out of principle (go to Boston's most famous park, the Common, and see how many pits go unmuzzled in front of police. walk down any street and try to count how many pits you do see w/ muzzles. And no one really cares if a dog is licensed or not unless it gets lost or bites someone; my dog was never licensed in the 9 years I had her), or just end up moving to nearby cities like Cambridge, where there are no BSLs. it really is just a useless, pointless law that doesn't even target the problem.
That is your choice. I have worked too hard for 35 years to have some things in life and I don't want to lose what I have accumulated because of a civil judgment by preponderance of evidence.
Why give the man any ammo?
People with questionable breed animals need to come together and at least attempt to change the stupid laws. In the meantime follow those laws so if anything they don't have to fork out even more $$$ in a civil suit.
Hey, I don't believe my house will ever catch fire but I have insurance just in case it does. Why? I don't want to be responsible and have to pay.
o.k. i will try to show you some posts/ pix that seem to poke fun at tragedy as soon as i can. i will post it as an addition to this thread though and not try to turn it into a new one because frankly i am tired of this pro-pit bull anti-pit bull thing. i think it would be great if there could be a separate pit bull forum! i have noticed that whenver the pit bull controversy gets too heated here that some on this forum (excuse me for saying "some") start hijacking the thread with pictures and jokes. also, since this is a forum and not a one on one conversation i thought it perfectly reasonable and allowable to use terms such as "some on this forum". i feel it much more enlightening if we could all contribute instead of just two or three people debating. we all have different styles of debate and i didnt see the point of starting a new thread titled "riveree doesnt agree with nicolepsy regarding......". i would think that starting a new post with such a title would seem like a personal attack. i am not searching the web for news stories in order to start these debates/discussions. im only responding (albeit sarcastically which i have seen others do also btw) to someone's elses posting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbird4848
I'm gonna have to step in here. Nicolepsy, I have not read ONE SINGLE post here on ~any~ of the dog threads where an APBT owner turns some tragic story of an attack into a joke.
The day I read a post like this fictitious one: "The story is tragic, now here is a pic of my wolfie with his chew toy. See him rip the head off like he did the mailman?" ...would result in every dog owner coming out with both barrels against said innapropiate post.
If someone posts pics of their dogs, it is to show you, and the rest of us who fear APBT, that pit bulls are demonized by the media and the uninformed. It is common sense that negligent and/or gangster-thug owners want pits for the wrong reasons and hence the animal behaves innapropiately.
Nicolepsy, your first post on this thread ~~some on this board will say it was probably a yappy chihuahua~~ was sarcastic, but voices your issues against some slight somewhere and now you are out to voice it, why not start a thread on what you feel is innapropiate reactions to tragic pit bull attack stories?
Why don't you just take issue with a specific post and owner instead of using this thread to air it out against "some on this forum" which is like me saying "some white people blah blah" or some other vague innuendo.
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Let's not become anti-APBT in general
