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I have to share a story about an obedience class I did with Jazz. She did puppy class and an advanced puppy class . Then friends talked me into taking an obedience class with a trainer that everyone seemed to love and yes this was before positive training is what it now is . While the trainer did use treats for rewards and did not do ear pinches for punishment like the lady that did the dog training through the SB rec department did, But she did insist on chain training collars and leash jerks.
( side note I did end up with the lady that used the ear pinches as a patient once and it took everything I had to not pinch her ear when she was being difficult... it was so tempting ' Oh how does that feel?")
Anyway Jazz and I get to class and the instructor would look around at the dogs to choose one that she could use as demo dog , Jazz was out front tail wagging "pick me, pick" me as she knew she could do it and get a treat The 2nd class a new dog that had never been on a leash came and the people carried it into class the trainer put the chain collar and leash on and the dog freaked and a battle of wills began between the dog and the trainer which had the dog crying, no make that screaming as it rolled on the ground. Jazz watched in what I want to call horror as she backed up into me not taking her eyes off that screaming dog.
After it was over Jazz wanted nothing to do with the trainer and acted like she was terrified of her . When the trainer would be looking for a demo dog Jazz was no longer out front but was back behind my legs trying to not even make eye contact with the trainer.
A couple weeks later we were working on distance recalls and the trainer would take the leashed dog to one end of the area we used for class step on the leash and lift her foot off when the owner called the dog. Jazz was very hesitant to walk with her and kept looking back at me . When I called she took off fast problem was the trainer had not gotten her foot off the all the way off the leash so she hit the end of the leash and got a good jerk because it was stuck under the trainers foot. After that she really wanted nothing to do with that trainer and we did hang in until the classes ended but I told the trainer to try to keep a distance as Jazz was afraid of her now.
Later when we would run into the trainer around town and she would try to make nice with Jazz , Jazz would back away from her and not let her near. She did not want to be this lady's friend.
So you do have to be careful as that trainer made that dog cry which then made Jazz afraid of her then that fear of the trainer was increased when Jazz realized that yes she might hurt her and did so with that accidental end of the leash jerk . The trainer did not set out to hurt Jazz it was an accident that she did not get her foot lifted fast enough so I am not mad at her. It shows how some dogs you make a mistake like that you do not get a second chance with them. So when trainers started suggesting alpha rolls and other punishment for her fear aggression toward unknown dogs getting in her face they did not feel right because she did trust me and felt safe with me and for me to suddenly freak out and roll her well that would make her fearful of me and put that bond at risk. I was not about to do that so made some trainers mad but kept the great bond I had with Jazz. Despite that fear issues she was able to do agility , do other dog events where there were dozens even hundreds of dogs, she walked in the big dog parade which had over a thousand dogs in it and hundreds more watching with their owners every year of her life. She lived life out and about town with me so despite her fear she had a great life and was a fantastic dog.
So once again I will say if something does not feel right to you listen to your gut and this is true in all aspects of life not just with dog training.
I wish I'd have had some of you around for our dogs when they were younger. I have tried and failed at the "come" command with almost every dog we've owned, although I've taken every dog but one to obedience classes.
The two different trainers had virtually the same methods, with a treat for a reward, and our dogs did well in class, but to be truthful, they all ended up finding the great outdoors more fun than coming back for a treat. Thankfully we live and have lived (before moving to this house) in rural areas far from the road, so I wasn't too worried about them dashing onto the street.
Jazz had trouble with come if she looked at me when she heard me she would come but if she was doing something fun like sticking her head down a squirrels hole or playing in water at the beach she would not even look at me.
The behaviorist said because of her fear aggression it was very important that her recall was 100%. He had me get a remote citronella collar and if I called and she did not come with that first come I was to hit the remote but not let her see me do it. He said she would see when she did not listen to me strange things would happen.
We were at a park that allows off leash dogs she had her head down a squirrel home I called she ignored me. I hit the button she got a spray from the collar she jumped a mile int the air and turned and raced back to me. It too maybe 2 or 3 times and after that she always came when she was called so was able to be off leash at that park and the beach and even without the collar on.
That first time was too funny and I wished we had filmed it as it could have been a winner on AFV as after she came and I released her she went back to the hole and was ever so cautious trying to find out just how that squirrel did that too her .She did seem convinced the squirrel did that to her!
I would not use a shock collar on my dogs but if citronella collar works I will use it as all it does is startle them and allow them to refocus. Jazz was such a wuss about things I knew it would work on her.
I wish I'd have had some of you around for our dogs when they were younger. I have tried and failed at the "come" command with almost every dog we've owned, although I've taken every dog but one to obedience classes.
The two different trainers had virtually the same methods, with a treat for a reward, and our dogs did well in class, but to be truthful, they all ended up finding the great outdoors more fun than coming back for a treat. Thankfully we live and have lived (before moving to this house) in rural areas far from the road, so I wasn't too worried about them dashing onto the street.
I think a lot of the issue with getting a dog to come lies in the way it is taught and introduced to the dog.
I often train a recall by playing chase with the dog- ok, sounds wacky I know, but if the dog is chasing you, they ARE coming to you I run away clapping hands, making fun noise, and generally acting like a lunatic, when the dog chases I praise them. Rinse and repeat, never ever using a command to encourage the chase and never punishing if they don't chase. I often use tug with my dogs as a training reward which they love when they are amped up and acting like chasing fools. Eventually, the chase becomes shorter, my body stops turning away to run so much, and I begin to temper my behavior, but it is so gradual that pup thinks they are still in chase mode trying to catch human. ONLY when pup goes bananas over chasing me do I begin to integrate the "come" word I have chosen, but still only as a "sound" not as a command, and never punishing if they don't chase/come, but always praising with treat or tug as a reward when they get it even half-way right.
There are of course variations on this, and other people have other ways to train a solid recall, but that is how I begin the process.
I thought that since there is much discussion here about different training techniques, that I would open up a thread where we can discuss, share, and engage in thoughtful rational discourse about all things training related.
I expect this will be a lively discussion. I hope to bring together information from different sources, get feedback on individual experiences, why you would or would not use a particular method, give insight into your particular training issues and how you resolved them, share your personal journey to becoming a better trainer, you get the idea.
I will start it off. As you may have noticed- gasp- I am a proponent of scientifically based positive training methods. As many of you have mentioned, there are a variety of different methods that work. Physical force works, no doubt. That isn't the relationship I want to have with my dogs. I want a dog who thinks, is engaged, offers behaviors to try to figure out what I want, and who is a willing partner in life and training.
I understand that not everyone will ascribe to a positive training program, but I think that to dismiss it out of hand is to do a huge disservice to our dogs- and to us because we are limiting the possibility for a more rewarding relationship with our dogs. I don't expect to change anybody's mind or cause a Eureka moment. All I am doing is presenting information that you can either look into or not- it's your choice.
I use gentle non-force based methods to train. That said, I am not an R+ only trainer. I use a variety of methods including body blocks, eye contact, body language, withholding reinforcement until I get the desired behavior, tone of voice, limiting access to resources, interrupt and re-direct behavior, and last but not least, controlling the environment. I use a clicker, also "yes", I primarily use shaping and capturing to train; desensitization and counter-conditioning for other issues. Training a dog-any dog- begins on first contact, whether that be leashing up a shelter dog, interacting with a foster dog, or working with my own dogs. Training begins immediately- there is no time set aside for training; it is ALL always training. Some things are easy- toss a dog a treat as soon as their butt hits the ground and they will learn how to sit nicely in a matter of minutes; other things take longer. I teach nice leash walking manners off leash- I don't want a dog to learn that pulling a leash is an option. They first learn that my left hand is the food dispenser. This is the zone. It progresses from there. I train with duration, distance, and distractions always forefront in my mind.
I volunteered at a rescue shelter for about a year to gain more training experience with a wider variety of unfamiliar dogs. My dogs know me. It is much more difficult to work with a dog you have never met before. I have also done foster rehabilitation of shy, unsocialized, reactive, and fear aggressive dogs. I need to start training non-canine animals to improve my skills, but I can't have a cat, and I don't have a use for a chicken other than for training, so I may need to invest in a guinea piggie
Generally, I think, when the average dog lover talks about "positive" training, they mean gentle non-force based methods. The actual scientific concepts of R+, R-, P+, and P- are far more complex, but it is worth the time it takes to understand them. The best dog (and animal) training relies on methods based on the scientific concepts of reinforcement and punishment. The scientific term punishment refers to anything that decreases the frequency of a behavior while reinforcement refers to anything that increases the frequency of a behavior. If you are interested in learning more about these scientific concepts, I have noted below the AVSAB website that contains a good comprehensive exposition of these terms.
For those who are skeptical about whether positive training methods work, I will point out that all manner of animals are now trained using techniques based on scientifically proven protocols. Sea mammals, fish, zoo animals, guinea pigs, chickens, house cats, birds, insects, and even butterflies (see link below) are being trained with these techniques not only for entertainment purposes, but also for veterinary procedures and day to day handling. Just an FYI- positive "training" methods work well on humans too.
12...can't rep you any more but I gotta say that this post is freakin' fabulous! Thanks for taking the time to write and to provide such useful links.
You and I train very much alike.
I sent this article in a DM to another poster on a different thread. It lists the major mistakes (misconceptions) people make when training using the positive approach. The author also explains how positive training mistakes have far less serious consequences than coercion training, whether used correctly or incorrectly. And how positive is not the same as permissive.
When I got Chaos we took positive training puppy classes and the puppies learned to walk at a heel off leash before we did any leash work. She has never been a leash puller. They also learned to sit when a person was approaching them and it was all in a very positive way. Each class the instructor would start out by walking past the puppies and the ones that sat ( without being told) got attention and a treat.
Chaos thought that was such a cool "trick " that when she started going to the dog park she would run up to someone and sit looking up at them rather then jump all over them like the typical puppy. And she was happy for just the attention they gave her as she loves to be petted and even hugged.
She has never been a puller and is very happy walking along side me and frequently looks up to make eye contact with me as we walk.She seems very happy and like she does things I ask because she wants to rather then thinking if I do not do that she will jerk my leash.
This morning I had her outside and was talking to a neighbor and said something about being so busy at work that I never got to sit down and take a break, Chaos heard that word "sit" and her butt was on the ground so fast my neighbor was bent over laughing.
Because I am old enough and have had dogs my whole life I have trained both ways and I do feel the ones that I trained using positive methods have seemed more eager to do what I ask and have been my better walkers and a joy to walk.
I think anyone that has been on this board for long knows I do not buy into all the alpha crap as much of it was based on wolves raised in captivity and they have since then found that wild wolves behavior is different. And the alpha roll is crap as a wolf does not roll another wolf over the other wolf rolls on its own in submission. That is very different then being forced to roll over.
As for dogs not eating first or being allowed out the door first I have never bought into that. My life in much easier if I feed my dogs first as then I can enjoy a meal and not feel rushed to feed my hungry dogs. My door way is narrow and the door has to be locked with a key so it just makes more sense to let the dogs out first and then have them wait for me and despite both I have never had a dog that felt I was not the leader/boss. And I have had some head strong herding breeds so not easy dogs .
I keep saying the day my dog goes to work, brings home the money , buys me food cooks that food for me , cleans up after me, drives me to fun adventures etc I will be more then happy to step down as the pack leader: However as long as I am doing those things I do think my dogs see me as the provider of all good things and they know how good they have got it so are fine with me being the leader.
I will say I am Ok with using the nothing in life is free with dogs that are difficult such as Jazz. To get a pat or a ball toss she had to work for it and that seems to be how she liked it too. I never just tossed a ball she had to do tricks or follow obedience commands for every toss of her ball, every snack she got and for most physical attention too. She worked for what she got and it helped keep her inline.
I have done agility with 4 of my 6 dogs and will say even if you have no interest in competition just taking some agility classes can do wonders for you and your dog as they learn to really pay attention to you and you both learn to work together as a team. It is a very fun bonding time with a dog.
Years ago Dazzle and I took an obedience class to get ready for his CGC and the instructor wanted everyone to use small sized pinch collars and I refused because I do not like them and he already wears a martingale. Being a sighthound he can pull out of regular flat collars and did so when I first got him and a bulldog frightened him. He took off running at 30+MPH So I got him the martingale to prevent that. The instructor kept trying to talk me into the pinch collar and I refused and much to her surprise he was one of the best dogs in class and he got his CGC the week after our last class on our first attempt.
So yeah there are different ways to train a dog that work but you have to use a method that feels right to you and and do not be afraid to say no I will not do that if something just does not feel right to you. I know I pissed off several local dog trainers when I was looking for help with Jazz and her fear aggression issues. What they told me to do just did not feel right to do to a dog that was already fearful and dog reactive so I said no and kept looking until I found a vet behaviorist that used positive methods and I have no regrets as that dog trusted me her whole life and she and I had a bond that I have never had with any other dog.
Great post!
I also use the No Free Lunch Program. I like it because it is completely non-confrontational, easily teaches self-control and the dog learns that all good things come from you.
I have to share a story about an obedience class I did with Jazz. She did puppy class and an advanced puppy class . Then friends talked me into taking an obedience class with a trainer that everyone seemed to love and yes this was before positive training is what it now is . While the trainer did use treats for rewards and did not do ear pinches for punishment like the lady that did the dog training through the SB rec department did, But she did insist on chain training collars and leash jerks.
( side note I did end up with the lady that used the ear pinches as a patient once and it took everything I had to not pinch her ear when she was being difficult... it was so tempting ' Oh how does that feel?")
Anyway Jazz and I get to class and the instructor would look around at the dogs to choose one that she could use as demo dog , Jazz was out front tail wagging "pick me, pick" me as she knew she could do it and get a treat The 2nd class a new dog that had never been on a leash came and the people carried it into class the trainer put the chain collar and leash on and the dog freaked and a battle of wills began between the dog and the trainer which had the dog crying, no make that screaming as it rolled on the ground. Jazz watched in what I want to call horror as she backed up into me not taking her eyes off that screaming dog.
After it was over Jazz wanted nothing to do with the trainer and acted like she was terrified of her . When the trainer would be looking for a demo dog Jazz was no longer out front but was back behind my legs trying to not even make eye contact with the trainer.
A couple weeks later we were working on distance recalls and the trainer would take the leashed dog to one end of the area we used for class step on the leash and lift her foot off when the owner called the dog. Jazz was very hesitant to walk with her and kept looking back at me . When I called she took off fast problem was the trainer had not gotten her foot off the all the way off the leash so she hit the end of the leash and got a good jerk because it was stuck under the trainers foot. After that she really wanted nothing to do with that trainer and we did hang in until the classes ended but I told the trainer to try to keep a distance as Jazz was afraid of her now.
Later when we would run into the trainer around town and she would try to make nice with Jazz , Jazz would back away from her and not let her near. She did not want to be this lady's friend.
So you do have to be careful as that trainer made that dog cry which then made Jazz afraid of her then that fear of the trainer was increased when Jazz realized that yes she might hurt her and did so with that accidental end of the leash jerk . The trainer did not set out to hurt Jazz it was an accident that she did not get her foot lifted fast enough so I am not mad at her. It shows how some dogs you make a mistake like that you do not get a second chance with them. So when trainers started suggesting alpha rolls and other punishment for her fear aggression toward unknown dogs getting in her face they did not feel right because she did trust me and felt safe with me and for me to suddenly freak out and roll her well that would make her fearful of me and put that bond at risk. I was not about to do that so made some trainers mad but kept the great bond I had with Jazz. Despite that fear issues she was able to do agility , do other dog events where there were dozens even hundreds of dogs, she walked in the big dog parade which had over a thousand dogs in it and hundreds more watching with their owners every year of her life. She lived life out and about town with me so despite her fear she had a great life and was a fantastic dog.
So once again I will say if something does not feel right to you listen to your gut and this is true in all aspects of life not just with dog training.
Smart Jazzy.
Yeah. My coercion training career ended almost as quickly as it began 25 years ago when the Training Director at the local club took my dog from me and did a sneak away so harsh that it yanked my 50 pound Aussie completely off his feet. I left immediately and never went back.
I wish I'd have had some of you around for our dogs when they were younger. I have tried and failed at the "come" command with almost every dog we've owned, although I've taken every dog but one to obedience classes.
The two different trainers had virtually the same methods, with a treat for a reward, and our dogs did well in class, but to be truthful, they all ended up finding the great outdoors more fun than coming back for a treat. Thankfully we live and have lived (before moving to this house) in rural areas far from the road, so I wasn't too worried about them dashing onto the street.
Yeah. My coercion training career ended almost as quickly as it began 25 years ago when the Training Director at the local club took my dog from me and did a sneak away so harsh that it yanked my 50 pound Aussie completely off his feet. I left immediately and never went back.
Jazz was by far the most difficult dog I ever had she had a severe fear of other dogs when I got her as a small puppy and she was by far the most intelligent dog I ever met. ( border collie X cattle dog) Intelligence in a dog can work for you but it can also work against you especially with a head strong dog. She was the puppy they say to avoid when getting a dog but she was with a rescue and I told myself you can give her a good home as she was very very sweet and very pretty too.
Yes there were days in that first year I felt maybe I had made a mistake but when I get a dog it is forever unless it is not best for the dog. There were even days I did not want to come home from work as it meant dealing with that difficult head strong puppy who would argue for hours with me when I tried correcting her.
Rather then do what too many do when they adopt such a dog and that is rehome it or even give it back I dug my heels in and told myself I could turn this puppy into a fantastic dog. It would take hard work but I could do it.
Thanks to Jazz I did take lots of training classes with different trainers. I did read lots of books on dog training and how to read dogs body language. In a way I tasted all the different training methods but decided to hold fast to the ones that felt right to me.I studied hard and she and I worked hard too.
The best day was when I took an agility seminar class with her I can not recall the ladies name but she was well known in the California agility world and she worked with many herding type dogs. After class she came up to me and said she thought I had an amazing dog and loved the way the two of us worked together. She also said that she felt Jazz was more like wild canines as she was not only intelligent but she was very clever. Jazz was not quite 2 at the time and having that woman tell me that made me so proud at how far the two of us had come and how we had become a team.
I was lucky to have shared my life with her for 14.5 years and feel glad that God entrusted that special dog to me. Dogs can teach us as much if not more then we teach them. Life with her taught me so much and I am for ever thankful to my old team mate. She was my once in a life time dog.I was blessed to have had such a dog.
Jazz was by far the most difficult dog I ever had she had a severe fear of other dogs when I got her as a small puppy and she was by far the most intelligent dog I ever met. ( border collie X cattle dog) Intelligence in a dog can work for you but it can also work against you especially with a head strong dog. She was the puppy they say to avoid when getting a dog but she was with a rescue and I told myself you can give her a good home as she was very very sweet and very pretty too.
Yes there were days in that first year I felt maybe I had made a mistake but when I get a dog it is forever unless it is not best for the dog. There were even days I did not want to come home from work as it meant dealing with that difficult head strong puppy who would argue for hours with me when I tried correcting her.
Rather then do what too many do when they adopt such a dog and that is rehome it or even give it back I dug my heels in and told myself I could turn this puppy into a fantastic dog. It would take hard work but I could do it.
Thanks to Jazz I did take lots of training classes with different trainers. I did read lots of books on dog training and how to read dogs body language. In a way I tasted all the different training methods but decided to hold fast to the ones that felt right to me.I studied hard and she and I worked hard too.
The best day was when I took an agility seminar class with her I can not recall the ladies name but she was well known in the California agility world and she worked with many herding type dogs. After class she came up to me and said she thought I had an amazing dog and loved the way the two of us worked together. She also said that she felt Jazz was more like wild canines as she was not only intelligent but she was very clever. Jazz was not quite 2 at the time and having that woman tell me that made me so proud at how far the two of us had come and how we had become a team.
I was lucky to have shared my life with her for 14.5 years and feel glad that God entrusted that special dog to me. Dogs can teach us as much if not more then we teach them. Life with her taught me so much and I am for ever thankful to my old team mate. She was my once in a life time dog.I was blessed to have had such a dog.
I can't rep you again, but thanks for sharing your wonderful story and thanks to everyone for the links and encouragment for working with my dogs to come. I'll be doing some reading tomorrow
Thanks to Jazz I did take lots of training classes with different trainers. I did read lots of books on dog training and how to read dogs body language. In a way I tasted all the different training methods but decided to hold fast to the ones that felt right to me.I studied hard and she and I worked hard too.
The best day was when I took an agility seminar class with her I can not recall the ladies name but she was well known in the California agility world and she worked with many herding type dogs. After class she came up to me and said she thought I had an amazing dog and loved the way the two of us worked together. She also said that she felt Jazz was more like wild canines as she was not only intelligent but she was very clever. Jazz was not quite 2 at the time and having that woman tell me that made me so proud at how far the two of us had come and how we had become a team.
I was lucky to have shared my life with her for 14.5 years and feel glad that God entrusted that special dog to me. Dogs can teach us as much if not more then we teach them. Life with her taught me so much and I am for ever thankful to my old team mate. She was my once in a life time dog.I was blessed to have had such a dog.
This is a wonderful success story. You and Jazz were so fortunate to find each other and have your precious time together.
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The 2nd class a new dog that had never been on a leash came and the people carried it into class the trainer put the chain collar and leash on and the dog freaked and a battle of wills began between the dog and the trainer which had the dog crying, no make that screaming as it rolled on the ground. Jazz watched in what I want to call horror as she backed up into me not taking her eyes off that screaming dog. 
I run away clapping hands, making fun noise, and generally acting like a lunatic, when the dog chases I praise them. Rinse and repeat, never ever using a command to encourage the chase and never punishing if they don't chase. I often use tug with my dogs as a training reward which they love when they are amped up and acting like chasing fools. Eventually, the chase becomes shorter, my body stops turning away to run so much, and I begin to temper my behavior, but it is so gradual that pup thinks they are still in chase mode trying to catch human. ONLY when pup goes bananas over chasing me do I begin to integrate the "come" word I have chosen, but still only as a "sound" not as a command, and never punishing if they don't chase/come, but always praising with treat or tug as a reward when they get it even half-way right. 
