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I thought that since there is much discussion here about different training techniques, that I would open up a thread where we can discuss, share, and engage in thoughtful rational discourse about all things training related.
I expect this will be a lively discussion. I hope to bring together information from different sources, get feedback on individual experiences, why you would or would not use a particular method, give insight into your particular training issues and how you resolved them, share your personal journey to becoming a better trainer, you get the idea.
I will start it off. As you may have noticed- gasp- I am a proponent of scientifically based positive training methods. As many of you have mentioned, there are a variety of different methods that work. Physical force works, no doubt. That isn't the relationship I want to have with my dogs. I want a dog who thinks, is engaged, offers behaviors to try to figure out what I want, and who is a willing partner in life and training.
I understand that not everyone will ascribe to a positive training program, but I think that to dismiss it out of hand is to do a huge disservice to our dogs- and to us because we are limiting the possibility for a more rewarding relationship with our dogs. I don't expect to change anybody's mind or cause a Eureka moment. All I am doing is presenting information that you can either look into or not- it's your choice.
I use gentle non-force based methods to train. That said, I am not an R+ only trainer. I use a variety of methods including body blocks, eye contact, body language, withholding reinforcement until I get the desired behavior, tone of voice, limiting access to resources, interrupt and re-direct behavior, and last but not least, controlling the environment. I use a clicker, also "yes", I primarily use shaping and capturing to train; desensitization and counter-conditioning for other issues. Training a dog-any dog- begins on first contact, whether that be leashing up a shelter dog, interacting with a foster dog, or working with my own dogs. Training begins immediately- there is no time set aside for training; it is ALL always training. Some things are easy- toss a dog a treat as soon as their butt hits the ground and they will learn how to sit nicely in a matter of minutes; other things take longer. I teach nice leash walking manners off leash- I don't want a dog to learn that pulling a leash is an option. They first learn that my left hand is the food dispenser. This is the zone. It progresses from there. I train with duration, distance, and distractions always forefront in my mind.
I volunteered at a rescue shelter for about a year to gain more training experience with a wider variety of unfamiliar dogs. My dogs know me. It is much more difficult to work with a dog you have never met before. I have also done foster rehabilitation of shy, unsocialized, reactive, and fear aggressive dogs. I need to start training non-canine animals to improve my skills, but I can't have a cat, and I don't have a use for a chicken other than for training, so I may need to invest in a guinea piggie
Generally, I think, when the average dog lover talks about "positive" training, they mean gentle non-force based methods. The actual scientific concepts of R+, R-, P+, and P- are far more complex, but it is worth the time it takes to understand them. The best dog (and animal) training relies on methods based on the scientific concepts of reinforcement and punishment. The scientific term punishment refers to anything that decreases the frequency of a behavior while reinforcement refers to anything that increases the frequency of a behavior. If you are interested in learning more about these scientific concepts, I have noted below the AVSAB website that contains a good comprehensive exposition of these terms.
For those who are skeptical about whether positive training methods work, I will point out that all manner of animals are now trained using techniques based on scientifically proven protocols. Sea mammals, fish, zoo animals, guinea pigs, chickens, house cats, birds, insects, and even butterflies (see link below) are being trained with these techniques not only for entertainment purposes, but also for veterinary procedures and day to day handling. Just an FYI- positive "training" methods work well on humans too.
I don't use Any of those. Mine is a combo of the best of each I guess. Clicker is Dumb! Dog may know he will get a treat but When? I use Voice praise & when the training is over they get treat! Stephanie got so when class ended she go into the shop get a pig ear jump on a chair eat! Course I had to pay for them. BUT she never touched them til we were done!! When Jetta was done she run in grab a ball! Play time!! Don't know but maybe it was Age differences ..Stephanie was 9 yrs old before I did any real training! Jetta was a pup 9 weeks old when she started Each dog was different took different rewards. Rotties & Dobies I had to be much firmer with ... list too long
When I got Chaos we took positive training puppy classes and the puppies learned to walk at a heel off leash before we did any leash work. She has never been a leash puller. They also learned to sit when a person was approaching them and it was all in a very positive way. Each class the instructor would start out by walking past the puppies and the ones that sat ( without being told) got attention and a treat.
Chaos thought that was such a cool "trick " that when she started going to the dog park she would run up to someone and sit looking up at them rather then jump all over them like the typical puppy. And she was happy for just the attention they gave her as she loves to be petted and even hugged.
She has never been a puller and is very happy walking along side me and frequently looks up to make eye contact with me as we walk.She seems very happy and like she does things I ask because she wants to rather then thinking if I do not do that she will jerk my leash.
This morning I had her outside and was talking to a neighbor and said something about being so busy at work that I never got to sit down and take a break, Chaos heard that word "sit" and her butt was on the ground so fast my neighbor was bent over laughing.
Because I am old enough and have had dogs my whole life I have trained both ways and I do feel the ones that I trained using positive methods have seemed more eager to do what I ask and have been my better walkers and a joy to walk.
I think anyone that has been on this board for long knows I do not buy into all the alpha crap as much of it was based on wolves raised in captivity and they have since then found that wild wolves behavior is different. And the alpha roll is crap as a wolf does not roll another wolf over the other wolf rolls on its own in submission. That is very different then being forced to roll over.
As for dogs not eating first or being allowed out the door first I have never bought into that. My life in much easier if I feed my dogs first as then I can enjoy a meal and not feel rushed to feed my hungry dogs. My door way is narrow and the door has to be locked with a key so it just makes more sense to let the dogs out first and then have them wait for me and despite both I have never had a dog that felt I was not the leader/boss. And I have had some head strong herding breeds so not easy dogs .
I keep saying the day my dog goes to work, brings home the money , buys me food cooks that food for me , cleans up after me, drives me to fun adventures etc I will be more then happy to step down as the pack leader: However as long as I am doing those things I do think my dogs see me as the provider of all good things and they know how good they have got it so are fine with me being the leader.
I will say I am Ok with using the nothing in life is free with dogs that are difficult such as Jazz. To get a pat or a ball toss she had to work for it and that seems to be how she liked it too. I never just tossed a ball she had to do tricks or follow obedience commands for every toss of her ball, every snack she got and for most physical attention too. She worked for what she got and it helped keep her inline.
I have done agility with 4 of my 6 dogs and will say even if you have no interest in competition just taking some agility classes can do wonders for you and your dog as they learn to really pay attention to you and you both learn to work together as a team. It is a very fun bonding time with a dog.
Years ago Dazzle and I took an obedience class to get ready for his CGC and the instructor wanted everyone to use small sized pinch collars and I refused because I do not like them and he already wears a martingale. Being a sighthound he can pull out of regular flat collars and did so when I first got him and a bulldog frightened him. He took off running at 30+MPH So I got him the martingale to prevent that. The instructor kept trying to talk me into the pinch collar and I refused and much to her surprise he was one of the best dogs in class and he got his CGC the week after our last class on our first attempt.
So yeah there are different ways to train a dog that work but you have to use a method that feels right to you and and do not be afraid to say no I will not do that if something just does not feel right to you. I know I pissed off several local dog trainers when I was looking for help with Jazz and her fear aggression issues. What they told me to do just did not feel right to do to a dog that was already fearful and dog reactive so I said no and kept looking until I found a vet behaviorist that used positive methods and I have no regrets as that dog trusted me her whole life and she and I had a bond that I have never had with any other dog.
Last night, I watched an old episode on Animal House where a certified dog trainer was trying to teach this rambunctious lab how to sit. The hyper dog was too distracted so he ignored her command. She yanked the leash hard, twice, yelling out, "sit!". He didn't budge. So she pushed him and he fell on his side. His ears were back, eyes look confused and unsure, tail lowered but wagging. The trainer claimed this dog is unruly because the owner didn't show him whose boss is why he won't listen to anyone. The owner's teenage son disagree, "he barks, he jumps on people, but that's what dogs do".
Exactly. Dogs will be dogs. We can guide their behaviors to our liking, but if given the wrong instructions or lack thereof, dogs don't know what we want from them.
I always thought it was silly... why would my dog judge me based on who goes out the door first? Do dogs even comprehend what a door is to them?
I cringe every time I watch Cesar Millan or other trainers trying to dominate the dogs. They speak so highly about how humans should view and treat them as what they are, not what we think they are. In that case, treat them as what they are: domesticated dogs who are different physically, mentally and socially from wolves. Try to dominate a wolf, it knows immediately you are not their kind and attacks your face.
I don't use Any of those. Mine is a combo of the best of each I guess. Clicker is Dumb! Dog may know he will get a treat but When? I use Voice praise & when the training is over they get treat! Stephanie got so when class ended she go into the shop get a pig ear jump on a chair eat! Course I had to pay for them. BUT she never touched them til we were done!! When Jetta was done she run in grab a ball! Play time!! Don't know but maybe it was Age differences ..Stephanie was 9 yrs old before I did any real training! Jetta was a pup 9 weeks old when she started Each dog was different took different rewards. Rotties & Dobies I had to be much firmer with ... list too long
I use voice praise effectively too. A clicker is just a tool that not everyone needs or wants, and that is fine.
You are absolutely correct that each dog is different- whether because of age, breed, or other factors- we need to be flexible and willing to adjust training to our address the individual dog's needs.
I had to laugh reading about Stephanie's "shopping trips" and Jetta's ball play- both great ways of letting the dog have a say in what is rewarding for them!
She has never been a puller and is very happy walking along side me and frequently looks up to make eye contact with me as we walk.She seems very happy and like she does things I ask because she wants to rather then thinking if I do not do that she will jerk my leash.
I will say I am Ok with using the nothing in life is free with dogs that are difficult such as Jazz. To get a pat or a ball toss she had to work for it and that seems to be how she liked it too. I never just tossed a ball she had to do tricks or follow obedience commands for every toss of her ball, every snack she got and for most physical attention too. She worked for what she got and it helped keep her inline.
I have done agility with 4 of my 6 dogs and will say even if you have no interest in competition just taking some agility classes can do wonders for you and your dog as they learn to really pay attention to you and you both learn to work together as a team. It is a very fun bonding time with a dog.
The instructor kept trying to talk me into the pinch collar and I refused and much to her surprise he was one of the best dogs in class and he got his CGC the week after our last class on our first attempt.
So yeah there are different ways to train a dog that work but you have to use a method that feels right to you and and do not be afraid to say no I will not do that if something just does not feel right to you. I know I pissed off several local dog trainers when I was looking for help with Jazz and her fear aggression issues. What they told me to do just did not feel right to do to a dog that was already fearful and dog reactive so I said no and kept looking until I found a vet behaviorist that used positive methods and I have no regrets as that dog trusted me her whole life and she and I had a bond that I have never had with any other dog.
Great post.
Yes! Thank you for bringing up NILIF/Nothing in Life is Free. It is a very gentle and effective way of teaching and enforcing that human is in charge of resources- whatever the resource is. Also a great way to teach impulse control.
Good for you for recognizing and standing by what was right for Jazz and Dazzle. We have a "trainer" in our area who routinely puts pinch collars on young puppies, and for the life of me, I don't understand why the owners allow it. This same trainer choked a dog until it was shaking screaming and urinating in fear, and the owner while horrified didn't intervene. This is hopefully not typical any more in other areas, but is unfortunately all too common in my small mid-west city.
At the end of the day it is all about relationship, and our dogs hear that loud and clear.
Last night, I watched an old episode on Animal House where a certified dog trainer was trying to teach this rambunctious lab how to sit. The hyper dog was too distracted so he ignored her command. She yanked the leash hard, twice, yelling out, "sit!". He didn't budge. So she pushed him and he fell on his side. His ears were back, eyes look confused and unsure, tail lowered but wagging. The trainer claimed this dog is unruly because the owner didn't show him whose boss is why he won't listen to anyone. The owner's teenage son disagree, "he barks, he jumps on people, but that's what dogs do".
Exactly. Dogs will be dogs. We can guide their behaviors to our liking, but if given the wrong instructions or lack thereof, dogs don't know what we want from them.
I always thought it was silly... why would my dog judge me based on who goes out the door first? Do dogs even comprehend what a door is to them?
I cringe every time I watch Cesar Millan or other trainers trying to dominate the dogs. They speak so highly about how humans should view and treat them as what they are, not what we think they are. In that case, treat them as what they are: domesticated dogs who are different physically, mentally and socially from wolves. Try to dominate a wolf, it knows immediately you are not their kind and attacks your face.
I haven't heard of Animal House before. I don't watch animal training shows though because I always end up shaking my head, yelling at the television, horrified, or some combination thereof. We humans do NOT deserve dogs.
Dog behavior does NOT = wolf behavior. Different mindsets, different learning skills, and utter lack of affiliative behavior toward humans. This is a flawed interpretation of studies done in the 50's that has been proven wrong, but for some reason it persists.
Oh my yes- my dogs have multiple reasons for wanting to go out the door before me- squirrels and rabbits to chase, need to potty, play time, but none of it having to do with wanting to dominate me. That said, there clearly are safety issues involved, and at our front door the dogs know that they need to sit, get leashed up, and wait for an invitation to proceed out the door.
I find it so ironic that on the one hand, some feel that dogs are "just" dogs intended to serve and obey humans, but on the other hand, they endow them (project onto them?) with the ability to plot the overthrow of humankind. No, sorry, sometimes dogs just want to get out the door; it has nothing to do with plotting a coup or planning to take over rule of the household.
I haven't heard of Animal House before. I don't watch animal training shows though because I always end up shaking my head, yelling at the television, horrified, or some combination thereof. We humans do NOT deserve dogs.
Dog behavior does NOT = wolf behavior. Different mindsets, different learning skills, and utter lack of affiliative behavior toward humans. This is a flawed interpretation of studies done in the 50's that has been proven wrong, but for some reason it persists.
Oh my yes- my dogs have multiple reasons for wanting to go out the door before me- squirrels and rabbits to chase, need to potty, play time, but none of it having to do with wanting to dominate me. That said, there clearly are safety issues involved, and at our front door the dogs know that they need to sit, get leashed up, and wait for an invitation to proceed out the door.
I find it so ironic that on the one hand, some feel that dogs are "just" dogs intended to serve and obey humans, but on the other hand, they endow them (project onto them?) with the ability to plot the overthrow of humankind. No, sorry, sometimes dogs just want to get out the door; it has nothing to do with plotting a coup or planning to take over rule of the household.
Well said.
Animal House is a tv show about North Shore Animal League daily events, ranging from adoption to fundraising. They are a popular no-kill animal shelter in New York. The shelter also provide obedience training classes. I sure hope they have changed their training methods since the show ended.
I prefer doing my research by reading about dog behavior from experts like Ray Coppinger and John Bradshaw. Many of the links posted by OP are great info too. I tried both methods in the past and found that my dogs learned faster and was more willing to work with me using positive reinforcement.
Unfortunately, the dominance method is still very popular in my area.
I've been teaching one of my dogs some tricks to combat his boredom (we adopted him with heartworms so he's not able to get a lot of exercise until his tests are negative for that).
He already knew "sit" when we adopted him. "Stay" took a while for him to learn because he had tremendous separation anxiety when we adopted him - he didn't relax for the first 6 months we had him. Once he knew we wouldn't be giving him away, he learned how to stay.
Next up was "shake" - and he learned that via repetition. I'd say the word and pick up his paw, shake it, and then scratch him behind the ears while saying, "good boy! good shake!" I never offered treats. The first time he offered his paw on his own when he heard the word "shake" is the day I gave him a treat. It only took him 3-4 days to learn how to shake and now he does it without fail.
Next up was "bang bang" (playing dead). To do this I would merely say the words "bang bang" and then gently coax him into laying on his back on the floor. Once in that position I'd rub his belly and say, "good boy! good bang bang!" Occasionally I'd also say the words if I found him already in that position on the sofa or on his bed. It got to the point where he associated that position with the words "bang bang" and so now he does it on command. It took less than a week.
The one thing I've been unable to teach him is NOT TO JUMP UP ON ME. He's a 60 pound dog and he loves to jump up on me when I get home. He's been doing it for a year and no method I've tried in all that time has worked. And believe me - I've tried everything.
I wish I'd have had some of you around for our dogs when they were younger. I have tried and failed at the "come" command with almost every dog we've owned, although I've taken every dog but one to obedience classes.
The two different trainers had virtually the same methods, with a treat for a reward, and our dogs did well in class, but to be truthful, they all ended up finding the great outdoors more fun than coming back for a treat. Thankfully we live and have lived (before moving to this house) in rural areas far from the road, so I wasn't too worried about them dashing onto the street.
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