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Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelleInUtah
BarkBusters will come back for the life of the dog to help work on any new or old issues. But of course, you have to do the homework! They helped my adopted APBT - or rather, they helped me - a lot!
I know -- it's just gotten embarrassing because the guy knows at this point that he's coming to train ME, and that I should be smart enough to catch on.
The good thing about using the clicker is that it is a very cheap tool. I paid a $1 something for one at petsmart. If it doesn't work, but we are going to think positive it does, then your not out but a couple of bucks. Get a couple of them so you will always have one like in your car or near the leash when you go out, I would sometimes forget to grab it when going out.
dandj, try reading karen pryor's "clicker training for dogs" book - you can often get it in a set that comes with a clicker, or just pick up a $1 clicker and take the book out of the library! i'd also recommend "the culture clash" by jean donaldson and "the other end of the leash" by patricia mcconnell for some basic stuff about the philosophy and science of dog training and behavior.
when you're looking for a trainer/behaviorist, find someone who's a member of the APDT (association of pet dog trainers) - that's a reputable organization that i believe requires its members to use humane and science-based methods. you can also ask for trainer recommendations on the positive training mailing list i recommended to you privately.
you should be the one in charge in the household, but that doesn't mean you have to be harsh or cold to your dog - i'm sure you know that.
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
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dogpaw -- I did some reading on clicker training and am trying to figure out how to mark his bad behaviors as well as his good ones (of which there are many as well). I'm definitely going the clicker route. It's on my shopping list for this weekend. Thanks!
groar -- I saw that Karen Pryor book when I was doing my research on clicker training yesterday evening! I'm definitely going to memorize that book! I've read "The Other End of the Leash" -- it's just implementing the techniques that I'm having trouble with. I need to wrap my head around the fact that just because I can be the leader, it won't make me "the bad guy" in our family. That's why I haven't been "leading" -- I want to be his pal more than his leader. I've got to change that, with the knowledge that I can actually be both. I can, right? Thanks!
I want to be his pal more than his leader. I've got to change that, with the knowledge that I can actually be both. I can, right? Thanks!
Excellent. You've realised this, and this will go a long way to helping sort this out.
I'd go so far as to suspect that when you see something coming towards you while Artie's on the lead, you tense up. This is fueling the fire. You may not even be aware you're doing it, but Artie would be. Think about the message it's sending the dog - "Jaysus ," thinks Artie, "this is so bad even Mom's shoulders just got tied in knots. What's coming must be really scary!"
There's a big difference between good, kind, effective leadership and the out-dated thinking we have to be some sort of alpha-dog substitute. Artie's going to look to you for reinforcement of what he's feeling, and so far you've been giving to him, so it's just become a vicious cycle. A good behaviourist who comes to see you at home and watches you and the dog in various situations that set Artie off, is going to be able to point out what needs to change in your behaviour as much as his.
Artie wants to co-operate, it's not pleasant going through life having to be tense and waiting for the next horrible thing to happen. Once he learns that you are the supplier of all things nice and safety and he can look to you for direction (do I need to be scared of that?!), he'll be a much happier boy. QED: you will be a lot happier too.
APDT is a great starting point - as are the books that are mentioned.
Take a deep breath, relax, don't beat yourself up about what's already done, and direct all those positive thoughts to how you and he are going to move forward and make progress. It might be slow, you might hit a plateau, you might even take a step backwards when you think everything's going swimmingly. Don't lose heart, you'll get there.
DandJ.....The first day I got the clicker I would just click and treat so that he knows that every time he hears the clicker he gets a treat. Then I would tell him sit, he sat, click and treat. Start out with simple things. The clicker is used instead of saying good-boy. So whenever he does something that you would say good boy to then that is when you click and treat. Now when I tell Finn to leave it or quiet he runs over to me looking for that treat. Sometimes I will click and sometimes I don't. And I don't always treat.
I'm sure the books can explain it a lot better then I can.
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
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latetotheparty -- Ye of great faith! I'm going to try my best. I'm going to make your relationship with Bailey my goal.
FiveHorses -- It's really funny because, when we see a jogger or another dog while we're out walking, I'm so aware of NOT tensing up that I obviously DO tense up. I'm going to try out the clicker training. If that doesn't work (i.e. if I'm not good enough at it), then I'll call Bark Busters again and have them come here again. I think you're right -- they have to see me in action with him (or rather, Artie in action when he's with me) and tell me how to change. Typically, the guy is showing me -- he himself is doing it -- and, of course, Artie is an angel with him.
dogpaw -- I just ordered Karen Pryor's clicker kit (the book, clicker, and "a bag of treats"). It should arrive late next week. Wish me luck!!!! I'm really going to try my best with this, and need to discover how to "mark" bad behaviors as well as the good ones. I'm sure the book will explain what I should (and shouldn't) do.
most positive trainers use a "no reward" word or phrase to mark undesirable behavior. "uh uh!" or "too bad!" or something like that works just fine. there's no need to make it loud, stern or frightening: you're just letting them know "you just lost out on a reward". combining it with turning your back on them until they do something right is very effective. save emphatic "no"'s for really serious, life or death situations.
one thing that i didn't pick up from reading and had to be taught is that a really important part of clicker training is that the clicker must ALWAYS mean a treat is coming, even if you click by mistake. the clicker must be a 100% reliable predicter of good things in order to work as effectively as possible as a good behavior marker. the reward doesn't have to be immediate (in fact varying the time between the click and the reward is ideal), and once a behavior is starting to be reliable you shouldn't click or reward every time, but if you do click a reward has to come within a minute or so.
like fivehorses said, don't worry if it takes time or if there are setbacks. this kind of training does not get instant results, but if you're consistent and persistent it will have lasting results. training is a commitment for the lifetime of the dog, and *you* need to do it (i can tell you know this already!) the trainers who say "give me your dog for 6 hours and he'll be perfect when he gets home" are either scam artists or are using god knows what inhumane techniques. those techniques can work, but why use them when there are humane alternatives?
sorry, i kinda tend to get carried away on this subject. there's just a lot of misinformation out there that can make people think that in order to be "pack leader" they need to stop rewarding their dogs, jerk their dogs around by the neck, yell at their dogs, force their dogs to the ground ("alpha roll"), not let their dogs sleep with them, etc.
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
17,330 posts, read 33,036,872 times
Reputation: 28903
Quote:
Originally Posted by groar
most positive trainers use a "no reward" word or phrase to mark undesirable behavior. "uh uh!" or "too bad!" or something like that works just fine. there's no need to make it loud, stern or frightening: you're just letting them know "you just lost out on a reward". combining it with turning your back on them until they do something right is very effective. save emphatic "no"'s for really serious, life or death situations.
one thing that i didn't pick up from reading and had to be taught is that a really important part of clicker training is that the clicker must ALWAYS mean a treat is coming, even if you click by mistake. the clicker must be a 100% reliable predicter of good things in order to work as effectively as possible as a good behavior marker. the reward doesn't have to be immediate (in fact varying the time between the click and the reward is ideal), and once a behavior is starting to be reliable you shouldn't click or reward every time, but if you do click a reward has to come within a minute or so.
like fivehorses said, don't worry if it takes time or if there are setbacks. this kind of training does not get instant results, but if you're consistent and persistent it will have lasting results. training is a commitment for the lifetime of the dog, and *you* need to do it (i can tell you know this already!) the trainers who say "give me your dog for 6 hours and he'll be perfect when he gets home" are either scam artists or are using god knows what inhumane techniques. those techniques can work, but why use them when there are humane alternatives?
sorry, i kinda tend to get carried away on this subject.
Oh no, don't be sorry. There's no such thing as TMI, at least in my world.
Interesting about the fact that a treat MUST be given after the click. I haven't read the book yet, obviously, but I thought that (well, actually, I saw this on "It's Me or the Dog" with Victoria Stillwell) after a while, you can stop giving out the treat. I'm just concerned that, with Artie's stubborn nature, that we're going to be at this a long time and he's going to get fat!
Which leads me to my next question (because I'm too impatient to wait for the book ): I don't know what behavior I'm going to be marking and treating. I mean, Artie's bad behavior is mostly when we're out for walks -- barking and lunging at people and dogs -- while the rest of the time, he's a little angel. I can't be randomly clicking and treating, just because he's lying quietly next to me. So my question is: am I looking to mark/treat the time after he stops barking/lunging (indicating that "yes, I like when you're being quiet and not pulling my arm out")? And, if so, how will he know that I'm not marking/treating the behavior that preceded it (the barking an lunging madness)?
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Thanks!
," thinks Artie, "this is so bad even Mom's shoulders just got tied in knots. What's coming must be really scary!" 
I'm really going to try my best with this, and need to discover how to "mark" bad behaviors as well as the good ones. I'm sure the book will explain what I should (and shouldn't) do.
