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Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
17,330 posts, read 33,032,639 times
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Hi everyone,
I've been seriously considering muzzling Artie once he's served his incarceration period in the Big House.
A few questions for you kind folks:
1. I've been looking for a cloth muzzle, but all that comes up when I search are these nylon ones. Do you think this is a good muzzle? PETCO Nylon & Mesh Dog Muzzle at PETCO
2. Can I make make it loose enough so that he can pant or drink, or will that loosening defeat the purpose? (Please don't suggest one of those box/cage muzzles -- I find those frightening.)
3. Would loosening it enable him to bark? On mornings when it's too icey to walk safely, I would love to let him out in the backyard, but he's a barking machine and would wake the neighbors.
4. Artie HATED it when he had to be muzzled once or twice at the vet. If he hates it, I hate it. Is there any way -- he's not food-driven, by the way -- to get him to accept the muzzle, do you think?
5. Do you think muzzling is cruel?
He's never going to be not attached to me via leash, so I'm not worried about biting but I would like to curb his barking at other dogs that we pass. I'm going to be putting him through a lot of training (thank you FiveHorses ) but I think that the muzzling may help until Artie learns what he has to learn.
Dawn - muzzles are not cruel when worn properly and the right muzzle is worn for the right reason. Artie would likely need a basket muzzle for being out and about, so he can pant and drink water and take treats even....but not put his teeth on anyone/thing inappropriately. Teaching him to accept the muzzle and wear it without concern will just take time, go slowly, wear it around the house for a couple minutes, reward and take it off.....repeat several times a day until he's okay inside with it - then venture outside for a few minutes - maybe in the safety of your backyard.....increase the time and distances as he gets more comfortable...
The 'quality' of the muzzle will be yours to choose - as they are a bit like purses and shoes - and you can go the Payless route - or Coach - or somewhere inbetween seriously!
We use the muzzle that you showed on our trips to the vet, or when we need to treat ear infections at home. That muzzle prevents the dog from opening their mouth at all - which is how a dog ventilates on warm days....so you wouldn't want to have Artie in a canvas muzzle if you were out and about together! Those are good for specific tasks where you want to protect him from using his teeth.....but will be taking it off once you are done in a short time.
I don't know that I would look to a muzzle to help curb or stop barking.......
Last edited by Rottnboys; 03-04-2010 at 02:31 PM..
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
17,330 posts, read 33,032,639 times
Reputation: 28903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottnboys
Dawn - muzzles are not cruel when worn properly and the right muzzle is worn for the right reason. Artie would need a basket muzzle for being out and about, so he can pant and drink water and take treats even....but not put his teeth on anyone/thing inappropriately.
The 'quality' of the muzzle will be yours to choose - as they are a bit like purses and shoes - and you can go the Payless route - or Coach - or somewhere inbetween seriously!
We use the muzzle that you showed on our trips to the vet, or when we need to treat ear infections at home. That muzzle prevents the dog from opening their mouth at all - which is how a dog ventilates on warm days....so you wouldn't want to have Artie in a canvas muzzle if you were out and about together! Those are good for specific tasks where you want to protect him from using his teeth.....but will be taking it off once you are done in a short time.
Oh God...
At the vet, she once used a leather muzzle. It was warm in the room and I cried seeing Artie sticking his little tongue out. I almost died. I actually removed the muzzle when she was out of the room and put it back on when she came back in because I couldn't stand it.
And that's exactly what I was worried about -- his ability to pant. OK, so that question is answered. No nylon or canvas or cloth muzzle that shuts his mouth. And if it's loose enough for him to pant, it's defeating the purpose.
But the basket muzzle... Oh God, it looks so fierce! Artie's going to look like Hannibal Lechter. I don't know if I could stand to put it on him, or look at him, or...
With the basket muzzle, I understand that he can pant (GREAT!) and accept treats (EVEN BETTER!) and drink (BONUS!), but can he bark with it on? If so, that's going to defeat the other purpose. I'm seriously not worrying about him biting because that one incident was just a domino effect of errors that will NEVER happen again, but I'd like to get him to stop barking at passing dogs until he learns it through training.
If there's no muzzle that will allow him to pant AND stop him from barking, then I'm just going to nix the muzzle (which was going to be a stop-gap, short-term measure anyway), and just tackle that training issue sooner rather than later.
Dawn - my current training buddy rottweiler 'was' a very big barker at approaching dogs or dogs in the distance, or dogs anywhere .....We got into a formal obedience class, so we could work on this in a safe facility, with other dogs, in the control of their owners, under the watchful eye of our trainer. Through lots and lots of patience and tasty treats, we started working at a distance, rewarding him for maintaining attention on me, allowing himself to redirected, and for continuing to walk with emotional control around other dogs. Slowly we cut the space between us and other dogs and continued rewarding for 'no-barking/lunging'........
We still have challenges - but having those other dogs in class, made all the difference in the world, because it's really hard to work on this, when you 'need' other dogs, but how do you ask a total stranger "would you mind walking back and forth here 10 or 15 times, so I can work on my dog's training?"
Is there a class you and Artie can get into? Maybe you get into a basic class, simply to work on his reactivity around other dogs - let the trainer/instructor know why you are there, and that you will pay the fee, but your main focus is to help Artie learn emotional control in the presence of other dogs.
We have been in non-stop weekly classes for almost 4 years now - it's our Monday night ritual - without it - my training buddy would be impossible to walk in public.....but we go everywhere together and can now happily walk with 30+ other dogs in our meetup hikes on the weekends!
Dawn - here we are with a few of our walking buddies this past weekend....and notice the only dog sitting and doesn't he look remotely 'in control' of himself??? Only people like you would 'get' me being proud of my dog simply sitting nicely around other dogs
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
17,330 posts, read 33,032,639 times
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Artie has a behaviorist but, as with everyone except me, Artie is PERFECT with him. He shows me what to do, Artie behaves like an angel, then the behavorist leaves, and Artie's all, "Great! He's gone! Let's wreak havoc again!"
I'm going to do just what you suggested: look into a formal obedience class that I can take him to, on my own, so it's just me and him... and the trainer and the rest of the class, or however it's set up.
Yup, that's exactly what I'm going to do. I have a week (alone) to find a place, which shouldn't be a problem.
One for the park that allows him to bark, drink, pant, lick your face, sniff other dogs' butts, etc.
The other can be used when you take him in your back yard. It seems to me this is your only concern for one that wouldn't allow him to bark. He's not outside for more than 5 minutes or so, right? You won't have to worry about him not being able to drink, pant, etc., if it's only on for a few minutes.
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
17,330 posts, read 33,032,639 times
Reputation: 28903
Rottnboys -- You must've added the photo (and the text preceding it) as I was typing my response to you because I just saw it. OHHH!!! I love it!!! I love how in control he looks. And I totally get why you're so proud -- AS YOU SHOULD BE!!!!
I've started looking into classes and, you're right, it's a great way to while away the time, and I'm soooo looking forward to going with Artie. I see this being yet another level of bonding for us. I'm so happy!
Thank you again. I tried to rep you but it seems I have to spread some around first. I'll be back!
MA -- That's a good idea, actually, so he can go out early in the morning for a quick pee 'n poop when it's really icey. That said, it's never been too icey that I haven't taken him out, obviously, but it would be nice to not have to worry about falling every few steps on those really bad days.
And, yeah, it would just be on for a few minutes, when he wouldn't have to be drinking anyway. Or, presumably, panting, since it'll be on cold days.
I won't get the other one, though. Too scary. I'll just train him instead!
I miss him too, M. So, so, so much. Aw crap, now I'm crying.
Only people like you would 'get' me being proud of my dog simply sitting nicely around other dogs
Oh, I get you. Our beloved Kaiser (a rottie too no less) had a mission in life and that was to rid the world of all other adult male dogs. HE didn't see anything wrong with his plan; he thought it was quite a good plan actually - "pick 'em off one by one" would have been his motto. We managed to rework that into "safely ignore all other male dogs in the world" which was great. However, we could never break him of the habit of chasing airplanes... but as someone once said to me, "Well, at least you never have to worry he's going to catch one!"
A lot of dogs react very badly to being muzzled because you're taking away their principle means of defense. Kaiser, in fact, used to flop on the floor and refuse to budge. Nothing doing, not moving. Nothing worked, he simply and utterly refused to get up, end of story. When a dog of that size goes "dead weight" on you... it's kind of hard to shift. Where we lived at the time actually had a national law that all dogs listed on the "restricted breeds" list had to be muzzled in public.
Now, am I correct in assuming that the muzzle is as much as for your peace of mind rather than some ordinance or something like that? FWIW, I don't think it's a good idea for the following reason: Artie's very reactive to the "outside world" and in a lot of cases this comes from the animal having - for want of a better expression - poor/low self-confidence. So if you take away his sole means of defense, it may (potentially) cause him to feel more exposed, more vulnerable, which isn't going to help.
I also seem to remember that he pulls on the lead, yes?
For better control in every sense, every behaviourist/trainer I know recommends one of these:
Because of where it goes, it might actually work on you too in that you might feel you're in better control of Artie and if you feel that you are, then you will be.
Location: Montreal -> CT -> MA -> Montreal -> Ottawa
17,330 posts, read 33,032,639 times
Reputation: 28903
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveHorses
Oh, I get you. Our beloved Kaiser (a rottie too no less) had a mission in life and that was to rid the world of all other adult male dogs. HE didn't see anything wrong with his plan; he thought it was quite a good plan actually - "pick 'em off one by one" would have been his motto. We managed to rework that into "safely ignore all other male dogs in the world" which was great. However, we could never break him of the habit of chasing airplanes... but as someone once said to me, "Well, at least you never have to worry he's going to catch one!"
A lot of dogs react very badly to being muzzled because you're taking away their principle means of defense. Kaiser, in fact, used to flop on the floor and refuse to budge. Nothing doing, not moving. Nothing worked, he simply and utterly refused to get up, end of story. When a dog of that size goes "dead weight" on you... it's kind of hard to shift. Where we lived at the time actually had a national law that all dogs listed on the "restricted breeds" list had to be muzzled in public.
Now, am I correct in assuming that the muzzle is as much as for your peace of mind rather than some ordinance or something like that? FWIW, I don't think it's a good idea for the following reason: Artie's very reactive to the "outside world" and in a lot of cases this comes from the animal having - for want of a better expression - poor/low self-confidence. So if you take away his sole means of defense, it may (potentially) cause him to feel more exposed, more vulnerable, which isn't going to help.
I also seem to remember that he pulls on the lead, yes?
For better control in every sense, every behaviourist/trainer I know recommends one of these:
Because of where it goes, it might actually work on you too in that you might feel you're in better control of Artie and if you feel that you are, then you will be.
At first I was thinking that I could muzzle him on our walks, but just until I could get him to stop reacting/barking with "manual" training, so to speak, but then it occurred to me that I could have two-fold benefits: that on icy mornings, I could let him out back without him waking the neighbors (and the dead).
I'm really in a quandary, though, because I know how much Artie hates the muzzle (understandably) and I hate the fierce way they make dogs look.
So, once again, I'm second-guessing myself on this. Now I'm thinking NO muzzle, obviously YES to the training packet you gave me this morning, and a new YES to a group obedience training class.
It doesn't help the barking in the morning, but if I can (eventually) train him to listen to me, he'll listen to me when I tell him NO when he barks in the backyard, right? Right. (Don't you love when I can answer my own questions?)
Is it wrong that I hate those collars/leads that have a face-latch thing just as much as I hate a full-blown muzzle? I realize this collar/lead is to help direct and control, but it looks so muzzley (new word!).
More to think about. I'm back to nixing the muzzle, though. And thinking about the head collar. Good thing I have time to figure it out, huh?
Last edited by DawnMTL; 03-04-2010 at 04:40 PM..
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but I would like to curb his barking at other dogs that we pass. I'm going to be putting him through a lot of training (thank you FiveHorses 
) but I think that the muzzling may help until Artie learns what he has to learn.
.....We got into a formal obedience class, so we could work on this in a safe facility, with other dogs, in the control of their owners, under the watchful eye of our trainer. Through lots and lots of patience and tasty treats, we started working at a distance, rewarding him for maintaining attention on me, allowing himself to redirected, and for continuing to walk with emotional control around other dogs. Slowly we cut the space between us and other dogs and continued rewarding for 'no-barking/lunging'........
A GREAT way to pass the time.....and something to look FORWARD to with Artie!!!
We managed to rework that into "safely ignore all other male dogs in the world" which was great. However, we could never break him of the habit of chasing airplanes... but as someone once said to me, "Well, at least you never have to worry he's going to catch one!" 
