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Old 05-22-2019, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Holly Neighborhood, AUSTINtx
3,582 posts, read 5,306,897 times
Reputation: 2205

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Capitalism is an ideology of capital –- the most important thing is the concentration of capital and to seek and maximize profit, and that comes at any cost to people and to the environment so to me capitalism is irredeemable.” - Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.)

Not sure what her idealized economy would be, but I doubt it could ever exist outside of a textbook given her other naive statements. I am not aware of a system that doesn't use natural resources and ignoring the 100s of millions in just China that have escaped poverty thanks to economic liberalization is incredibly narrow-minded. I do not need to justify to her why I might train for a better job for more money or put my money to use so I can have a retirement nest egg. Bernie was somewhat understandable but this is just going off the deep end into the abyss.
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Old 05-22-2019, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,579 posts, read 3,001,676 times
Reputation: 12769
Capitalism is about as broken as it's been since the robber baron days. It needs thorough reform and far more rigid control.

We can ignore the idiots who think it needs to be thrown out.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:37 PM
 
26,075 posts, read 28,473,598 times
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I think what we need is real free market capitalism. What we have now has been described as Cartel-ism, whee we have only limited competition in many industries.

At least the OPEC oil cartel is honest about what it is. We also have a health care cartel and a banking cartel. We're headed for a retail cartel as well.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:42 PM
 
26,075 posts, read 28,473,598 times
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This man talks about the stuff no politician will ever talk about:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWcVxssAs2g
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:52 PM
 
15,517 posts, read 13,509,459 times
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Yet every other system has failed miserably, with severe impacts to people and the environment.

Capitalism is property ownership concept, people versus the state, it can be only one or the other. The state has demonstrated it has failed again and again when controlling the means of production.
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:26 AM
Status: "Excited to move to Vegas!" (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Beaverton, OR
5,530 posts, read 5,897,134 times
Reputation: 6307
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
I think what we need is real free market capitalism. What we have now has been described as Cartel-ism, whee we have only limited competition in many industries.

At least the OPEC oil cartel is honest about what it is. We also have a health care cartel and a banking cartel. We're headed for a retail cartel as well.
Bingo. The only thing broken is WAY too much government intervention into the free market so that you canít build a house or an apartment complex without costly and burdensome regulations that have nothing to do with safety but are instead arbitrary things like how many electrical sockets are required or having to have a gate to prevent someone elseís kids from drowning while trespassing on your property or any number of other idiotic things that raise the price of the free market doing its job. Capitalism works best when itís relatively unconstrained by burdensome regulations, which in cities like SF means zoning restrictions that massively increase rent costs and push out middle class earners.
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Old 05-23-2019, 08:23 AM
 
Location: MN
152 posts, read 275,826 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
but this is just going off the deep end into the abyss.
Ocasio-Cortez is a run-of-the-mill social-democrat. She recognizes that capitalism has irreconcilable antagonisms within itself (e.g. between buyer-seller, producer-consumer, worker-capitalist, rich-poor, etc.) and that the state needs to assume a larger role to calm these antagonisms. I.e. save capitalism from itself through the state medium.
Quote:
I think what we need is real free market capitalism. What we have now has been described as Cartel-ism, whee we have only limited competition in many industries.
"Free-market capitalism" leads to monopolization which requires state intervention to break up to keep the system going, (late 19th early 20th century). Capitalism requires periodic smashing up and bailing out to survive.
Quote:
Yet every other system has failed miserably,
Capitalism will fail sometime too, and has before. Or is it eternal? The questions are when it finally fails, when? Where? Exactly how? What will replace it? etc.

Every system will fail sometime. Feudalism in Europe was dominant for 1,000-1,500 years, it dealt with the miserable failure of the ancient world remarkably well for that time, yet in the end it failed too. During the 1930s it looked like capitalism was the failure and socialism the stunning success.
Quote:
Capitalism is property ownership concept, people versus the state, it can be only one or the other.
When you speak of "people" property ownership I take it you mean private and not communal?

Capitalism requires state property to function, how else are the essential but unprofitable activities going to function? (Police, army, courts, some utilities, roads, schools?)

Also capitalism cannot merely be reduced to "private ownership of the means of production." After all, in feudal society the means of production were owned by the peasantry in the country and craftsmen in towns, yet feudalism was not capitalism.

Quote:
The state has demonstrated it has failed again and again when controlling the means of production.
At times yes, at other times private property has failed, necessitating state intervention (Great Depression, Great Recession). Or in other countries, like Russia where liberalization sent most people to the poorhouse and Stalin is now the most popular person.
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Old 05-23-2019, 08:44 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,219 posts, read 19,521,254 times
Reputation: 12961
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgr View Post
Capitalism will fail sometime too, and has before. Or is it eternal? The questions are when it finally fails, when? Where? Exactly how? What will replace it? etc.
Capitalism is the most successful economic system in the history of humankind. It will not go away anytime soon. The United States will remain a capitalist country for a long time to come.

That said, there will likely be an increase in certain kinds of taxes and social programs over time.
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:20 AM
 
Location: MN
152 posts, read 275,826 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Capitalism is the most successful economic system in the history of humankind.
I concur, it is currently the most successful system, after all almost the whole world is capitalist, it dominates everything.

Quote:
It will not go away anytime soon.
That is likely, but then who really knows? Things reach their peaks and look eternal, but it is only a step or two before they crash harder than ever. The monarchy in France was at its at its peak in the early-mid 18th century yet by the end of the century France was a republic and the last monarch beheaded. The 1920s U.S. was a long economic boom, yet the next decade was the greatest bust.
Quote:
there will likely be an increase in certain kinds of taxes and social programs over time.
Which means that Ocasio-Cortez is simply stating the obvious. Capitalism produces irresolvable strife ("capitalism is irredeemable,") which within capitalism can only be lessened via state intervention. That may alienate some businessmen, but so what? The social-democrats realize that in order to save the system it needs to be less profitable for some people, otherwise the whole system blows. The French aristocracy failed to realize this in 1789, and ended up losing everything; the Russian Tsardom did not recognize this and lost it all in 1917.

Last edited by bcgr; 05-23-2019 at 09:32 AM..
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Old 05-23-2019, 09:56 AM
 
6,293 posts, read 3,564,804 times
Reputation: 21982
All I hear is, "Take from you and give to me." Americans are already a government-driven and naturally generous people. It's an endless and tiresome theme that most caring people have already implemented in their lives if they are inclined or capable.

I see Capitalism as a sort of Ponzi scheme in the sense that it requires constant growth. In my lifetime I've seen the results, both positive and negative, and believe that our saving grace will be lowered expectations and downsizing. If we don't do it ourselves, and we won't, some force greater than politics and the market will adjust it eventually.

So far it's the best people have been able to devise but its downside is becoming more apparent as everything speeds up.
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