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Honestly, 90% of the problem with higher education is cultural.
I'd agree in large part. But...
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Our society no longer has a strong work ethic and that includes how hard students work in school.
I think this is largely BS that comes from a mindset that thinks "work ethic" means ten hours a day by the sweat of your brow. Most employment hasn't been like that for decades and neither consumes a person's life nor his/her personal... reserves. Not giving your entire waking existence to a job or coping with it isn't a sin. (OTOH, the entire live/love/work/loft BS may be.)
As for students... I again maintain that we (all of we) turned "college" into an ever-narrowing cattle chute for job tickets, deprecating any field that wasn't STEM (MPBBUIN) or some other field double-garn'teed to have massive shortages and maxed wages in about four years. (E.g., nursing, cyclically.) So a certain lack of enthusiasm as millions of students dutifully punch the clock for a job they probably have little actual interest in isn't really "poor work ethic" but... poor work ethics on the part of us all.
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Anyway... what is a college? A room, a white board, and a prof talking. I'd like to buy some old warehouse, subdivide it, get a bunch of chairs, hire a bunch of Ph.D.'s, and poof! a university. That's really all you need. I'd charge some minimal tuition, like $10K/year, students live at home and brown bag it. Minimal admin staff. A janitor or two. A wifi network. Maybe stream the lectures online for those who can't be there physically.
It's whopping understatement not worth attempting to deconstruct; I assume you're taking on Ford and Tesla and BMW building cars in your garden shed, too. Unless, of course, your vision is yet more rote/scantron indoctrination into the holy mysteries of Ethernet.
Anyway... what is a college? A room, a white board, and a prof talking. I'd like to buy some old warehouse, subdivide it, get a bunch of chairs, hire a bunch of Ph.D.'s, and poof! a university. That's really all you need. I'd charge some minimal tuition, like $10K/year, students live at home and brown bag it. Minimal admin staff. A janitor or two. A wifi network. Maybe stream the lectures online for those who can't be there physically.
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Do you want your nursing students able to get licensed after graduation? Your grads to be able to go onto law or medical school? For your students to be able to easily transfer credits to another school if it doesn't work out at your school? For your students to be eligible for federal financial aid?
Then you need an additional bureaucracy to manage modern certification and accreditation standards and certify that your students are getting a legit college education that meets standards for the degree programs offered. The small state college I used to work at ran a lean operation in that regard and still spend mid six figures every year keep the state, the regional accreditation board and assorted other certification agencies happy.
And even the skeevier for-profit schools had that kind of overhead costs. The only way to escape that is to pretty much be an independent bible college with no outside financial aid, no outside certifications, and student who don't care if they can get into Liberty U law school after graduation.
Interesting to hear different views and thoughts on this uncertain industry that has yet to be disrupted by tech revolutions...
It is foreseeable that some of the college towns, if not all, will become ghost towns once the change hits, some sooner, some later. If you believe this, please list your fav college towns that risk falling apart due to this unstoppable movement...
Who would be able or willing to envision that retail giants like sears or Macy’s would go under two decades ago, thanks to the evil force emitted from J bezos??
Interesting to hear different views and thoughts on this uncertain industry that has yet to be disrupted by tech revolutions...
Maybe some industries don't need to be "disrupted."
Tech is not the ultimate solution to everything.
Tech as implemented by "disruptors" interested primarily in their stock billionairage and/or the fabled billion-dollar-buyout of a six-dollar company doesn't belong anywhere near education.
Interesting to hear different views and thoughts on this uncertain industry that has yet to be disrupted by tech revolutions...
It is foreseeable that some of the college towns, if not all, will become ghost towns once the change hits, some sooner, some later. If you believe this, please list your fav college towns that risk falling apart due to this unstoppable movement...
Who would be able or willing to envision that retail giants like sears or Macy’s would go under two decades ago, thanks to the evil force emitted from J bezos??
Like the rest of the economy, the most vulnerable are the ones that were already shaky before COVID-19 happened.
In particular - private colleges that cost something like 50%+ more than their public sector counterparts without a corresponding premium in prestige, and any college that was in significant enrollment decline already. Those were already the ones in worse positions. Most of them are in the northeast and midwest where the education infrastructure was built out for times when those states had more vibrant populations and economies.
Regional state universities that were in decline will decline further. In those cases they'll probably never close down completely as long as they're valuable services, but they'll reduce staff and faculty, and not offer as many programs.
At my community college, ironically, what the public wants the most - VoTech - is getting hit the hardest. The easiest courses to convert online are reading/writing intensive ones. VoTech is very difficult or next to impossible to reproduce online.
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Originally Posted by redguard57
Like the rest of the economy, the most vulnerable are the ones that were already shaky before COVID-19 happened.
... ironically, what the public wants the most - VoTech - is getting hit the hardest. The easiest courses to convert online are reading/writing intensive ones. VoTech is very difficult or next to impossible to reproduce online.
As usual, Both my spouse and I have certs in VoTech, but these programs went under in the 1980's
I finished my technical apprenticeship in 1976, so had good wages and opportunities since. The average age in my field was 68, in 1976. Mine was the last apprenticeship done in USA by my company.
I feel getting the right j-o-b is the best path to votech. Too bad new hires can no longer read a tape measure or do simple math. Employers are expected to TRAIN in basics as well (+ PAY the slackers). Mis-read tape measures can cost me several thousand dollars and weeks worth of rework / customer delayed shipments every day! I can't afford to waste my company time or reputation on slackers.
When I lived and worked in Asia and in Europe, companies partnered with tech schools and students were assigned a company before their final yr of EDU. That yr was spent learning the company processes, software, procedures. (As well as time spent on company projects and working evenings and weekends for company). When the grad showed up for work... they could perform on day one.
USA.. they show up and sit on their hands waiting to be told each instruction (as they have been doing for 12 - 20 yrs). Sorry Charlie, you are OUTTA HERE!
As usual, Both my spouse and I have certs in VoTech, but these programs went under in the 1980's
I finished my technical apprenticeship in 1976, so had good wages and opportunities since. The average age in my field was 68, in 1976. Mine was the last apprenticeship done in USA by my company.
I feel getting the right j-o-b is the best path to votech. Too bad new hires can no longer read a tape measure or do simple math. Employers are expected to TRAIN in basics as well (+ PAY the slackers). Mis-read tape measures can cost me several thousand dollars and weeks worth of rework / customer delayed shipments every day! I can't afford to waste my company time or reputation on slackers.
When I lived and worked in Asia and in Europe, companies partnered with tech schools and students were assigned a company before their final yr of EDU. That yr was spent learning the company processes, software, procedures. (As well as time spent on company projects and working evenings and weekends for company). When the grad showed up for work... they could perform on day one.
USA.. they show up and sit on their hands waiting to be told each instruction (as they have been doing for 12 - 20 yrs). Sorry Charlie, you are OUTTA HERE!
We had some problems in our automotive program because of the couple math/science classes we had to add to it. Washed out students like crazy. Specifically, electrical theory and applied geometry.
Interesting to hear different views and thoughts on this uncertain industry that has yet to be disrupted by tech revolutions...
Remember that higher ed and DARPA created the tech that enabled the revolutions. They've been pondering how to integrate it all into their institutions since the 80s and are far more ahead of that than folks outside those ivory and silicon towers realize.
It costs about $8500 per student per year to deliver instruction. The man hours depend on tne instructor's preparation, efficacy and efficency. This wouldn't change or more likely would go up with a transition to all online.
The dream you have, of one instructor teaching thousands or tens of thousands of students was tried by the MOOC companies 8-10 years ago. They had hundreds of millions of venture capital behind them and hired the top professors in the country to be the face of their classes. They failed miserably and had to change their business model to one that works with colleges, not against them.
Oh documentaries! Because those are so cheap to produce! They were so cheap and profitable that History, A&E, and TLC got so exhausted from making huge profits off of their documentary content that they switched to reality TV.
Something I've been encountering lately are the legal issues regarding copyright. Showing something in class is protected by fair use. Posting something online has no such protection. Digitization of content is a whole new ball game in legal terms.
The man hours depends on how many classes instructor is giving. As for online, once you do the prep, make a presentation, and use that for rest of semester, each and every semester until something new comes up, and presenters want to make changes. But let's face, something new, and groundbreaking that needs an entire class to go over hardly happens.
Documentaries for TV is for entertainment, not efficient teaching. It has to be entertaining. The two are not comparable. Youtube Blogging is the highest level you need, and that is obviously done cheaply.
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Originally Posted by Therblig
Even within a single school, there are often choices of classes. If you choose the ones likely to be listen-and-regurgitate, and even more seek out the instructors known to put few demands on students, you get what you pay for.
But then, most college students are too stupid to make the best of what they have in front of them, instead of finding the path of least resistance to Big Starting Job Bux.
If you are in a major or want to get into a major, you have to choose specific classes. If you want to get into certain classes, you have to pass certain prerequisite classes. You cannot take certain classes if not in that major. If there are classes that are freebooted, and anyone can take anytime, I guarantee, it largely just filler, and not very informative.
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This thread seems to have gravitated toward college, and away from "education" in general, where most of the education is done in grades k-12.
We are seeing, in this pandemic, that K-12 isn't done effectively online AT ALL.
Between the young students refusing to do work, and the parents not knowing how to teach it or enforce it, K-12 needs to be done on campus and not online for the bulk of students.
Additionally, one of the greatest learning experiences in college happens first semester freshman year, when students are away from their hometowns and families and see the rest of the world. First semester freshmen go home for Thanksgiving with opened eyes.
That won't happen if everyone is sheltering in their basement doing online learning.
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Mis-read tape measures can cost me several thousand dollars and weeks worth of rework / customer delayed shipments every day! I can't afford to waste my company time or reputation on slackers. 
