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The US is incredibly generous in terms of public education. I don't advocate getting rid of all public education, I think that if you pay taxes into the system, you should be able to keep the vast majority of that money to educate YOUR children as you see fit (religious, trade, performing arts, whatever kind of school YOU decide), while still paying in a small percentage for those truly needy kids whose parents don't pay taxes. Getting rid of all public education is unrealistic, we need an educated work force. My desire is to get rid of the "one size fits all" public education system we have now.
I agree. I have not heard anyone talk about getting rid of all public education. I agree that would be unrealistic. What I would like to see are alternatives if you want a more rigorous or specific focus for your child. I think this country needs a much better vocational education system, which for some reason does not seem to be succeeding in most of the country. Realistically, the majority of students would stay in the public school system.
No one said ALL teachers are this or that. I made a comparison to how other professions are handled. When I was an engineer, not all engineers were good engineers but the people making the decisions as to the standards we'd follow were ENGINEERS!! And other ENGINEERS studied and critiqued their recommendations!!! Novel concept, let those who are actually educated and experienced in the field determine what is best for the field. They didn't go out and ask people who use cars how we should build them and test them (customers were asked what features and styling they liked). They asked the people who design them and build them!! They asked the experts what to do. In education, we treat the experts like they're idiots and refuse to listen to them and then wonder why they seek union representation. Like it or not, teachers are the experts. Yet, everyone seems to think they should tell us how to do our jobs. It would be really nice if they'd let us teach.
I have no problem with the state standards I'm asked to teach to except I need about a 10 week longer year to have any hope of hitting them all to any extent. So I have to pick and choose. Now they're setting "Power standards" as the important ones (as in we're supposed to hit those first and then anything else we have time for). Here I have a problem. IMO, the standards I NEED to teach, if I can't teach them all, are the ones that *I* can take my students to new heights with. Well, most chemistry teachers aren't former engineers. My area of expertise, the areas in which I can really teach my students falls into the physical aspects of chemistry which turns out to be what they are cutting out to make room for the rest. The problem here is that it's not WHAT you know that's important as you're going to forget most of WHAT you are taught. It's the ability to think logically you learn while learning to think scientifically that matters. In order for me to teach well, I need to go where *I* can teach well.
52% of the state exams centers around the ability to think critically and interpret and use data. 12% is standards the kids should know. The state picks 6 of my 143 standards to put on the test each year. That being the case, which ones I teach isn't nearly as important as teaching my students to think and interpret and use data. IMO, that means I'm teaching standards that are not power standards and lobbing off what are considered power standards. The last school I taught at saw a 30% and 35% increase in passing scores the two years I was there when I taught my way. They also fired me....and their scores are right back wehre they were before they hired me... Seriously, I'm the expert on what I teach. I don't mind debating with other experts on what's important and what isn't but having people who have no idea what's important or not make these decisions is stupid. I spent 20 years in industry. Don'cha think I have some clue as to what is really important???
Of course you have a clue of what is important but not the only clue that counts. Parents and the community count. I note that because you seem to think in terms of my way of the highway. Why? When you stressed " the standards I NEED to teach, if I can't teach them all, are the ones that *I* can take my students to new heights with. " I, I does reflect that attitude as far as I am concerned. The parents and the community tell you what they want with their kids, not "here is my kid and do what YOU want to do, no questions asked". They set the standards they want for their kids, not you. They are the ones that pay you so you do not demand with Is. Not that I am against teachers that are inovative and caring, by all means that is what we need and parents that truly care will notice and want them. Take care.
Of course you have a clue of what is important but not the only clue that counts. Parents and the community count. I note that because you seem to think in terms of my way of the highway. Why? When you stressed " the standards I NEED to teach, if I can't teach them all, are the ones that *I* can take my students to new heights with. " I, I does reflect that attitude as far as I am concerned. The parents and the community tell you what they want with their kids, not "here is my kid and do what YOU want to do, no questions asked". They set the standards they want for their kids, not you. They are the ones that pay you so you do not demand with Is. Not that I am against teachers that are inovative and caring, by all means that is what we need and parents that truly care will notice and want them. Take care.
I think this is a great idea. Hey, do me a favor. I'm a parent -- I need to understand how telling the teacher what you want with your kids really works for you.
Just to kick things off here, pretend your child is in Ivory's AP Chemistry class. Would you mind -- just to show other parents how the "parents and community tell you what they want with their kids" -- writing down the top three specific skills or concepts that your child should learn in Ivory's class? Be specific, now! Don't just say, "Learn chemistry," but really get down to business. After all, you're the one that pays her.
Top Three Chemistry Skills or Concepts:
1.___________________
2.___________________
3. ___________________
You also set the standard for your kids and not her. Very important concept! Would you mind spelling this out for me, like how this works? Again, if your child were taking Ivory's AP Chem class, how would you assess their mastery of the subject matter?
I agree. I have not heard anyone talk about getting rid of all public education. I agree that would be unrealistic. What I would like to see are alternatives if you want a more rigorous or specific focus for your child. I think this country needs a much better vocational education system, which for some reason does not seem to be succeeding in most of the country. Realistically, the majority of students would stay in the public school system.
If you want more for your child, you are more than welcome to pay for it. Nothing is stopping you. Pulling money out of the system is unfair to everyone left in. It's not YOUR money. It's the tax payers money. All of the tax payers. Those with kids and those without. THEY are paying for an educated society to live in. Sorry, but public education isn't about YOUR child. If you want more for your child, write a check. When I felt my dd needed more, I wrote a $4000 check to Sylvan. I did not expect the system to cater to her.
Of course you have a clue of what is important but not the only clue that counts. Parents and the community count. I note that because you seem to think in terms of my way of the highway. Why? When you stressed " the standards I NEED to teach, if I can't teach them all, are the ones that *I* can take my students to new heights with. " I, I does reflect that attitude as far as I am concerned. The parents and the community tell you what they want with their kids, not "here is my kid and do what YOU want to do, no questions asked". They set the standards they want for their kids, not you. They are the ones that pay you so you do not demand with Is. Not that I am against teachers that are inovative and caring, by all means that is what we need and parents that truly care will notice and want them. Take care.
This is, EXACTLY, the problem attitude.
So, please, tell me what chemistry concepts you think I should teach if it's not the ones I can teach critical thinking skills with???
*I* reflects the fact that *I* am standing in front of that room and there are some topics I can take kids to new heights on and others I can't. If you want your child to have a decent science education, *I* need to be able to teach the concepts that *I* am capable of taking them to new heights on whether they are deemed power standards or not. AND *I* spent 20 years in engineering. You may find this really hard to believe but I actually have a clue as to which standards are the important ones.
You just made my point. The goal is to get students ready for college and the state exams. Do you really think I lack the ability to figure out how to get there? I know from EXPERIENCE what it takes to succeed in college chemistry classes. I know that 52% of the state science test is thinking scientifically and only 12% are the standards. People like you are why education is such a mess these days.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-05-2012 at 03:02 PM..
I think this is a great idea. Hey, do me a favor. I'm a parent -- I need to understand how telling the teacher what you want with your kids really works for you.
Just to kick things off here, pretend your child is in Ivory's AP Chemistry class. Would you mind -- just to show other parents how the "parents and community tell you what they want with their kids" -- writing down the top three specific skills or concepts that your child should learn in Ivory's class? Be specific, now! Don't just say, "Learn chemistry," but really get down to business. After all, you're the one that pays her.
Top Three Chemistry Skills or Concepts:
1.___________________
2.___________________
3. ___________________
You also set the standard for your kids and not her. Very important concept! Would you mind spelling this out for me, like how this works? Again, if your child were taking Ivory's AP Chem class, how would you assess their mastery of the subject matter?
Looking forward to reading your answers.
Unfortunately, I have to spread some rep around.
My years of education and years of experience tell me that learning to think scientifically trumps everything else (but, apparently, my years of education and years of experience are trumped by parents and politicians who know better than I do...). Learning this fact or that isn't nearly as important as learning to think critically and to interpret and use data. Because I'm more expert in some areas than others and, sometimes, just have really great labs to go with the concepts that challenge my students, those are the ones I use to teach those skills. To lob them off because someone else said they're not important would lower the bar in my class.
Here's an example. One of my standards is that students will be able to compare the density of sugar water to pure water. It's not a power standard BUT the lab I do for this standard requires my students to construct a standard curve and use that curve to interpolate and extrapolate data (the questions they are asked to answer with the curve they construct really challenge them.). I spend 6-8 hours setting up that lab and then hours hosing down a sticky lab because my students learn so much during the lab. I don't care if it teaches a power standard or not. It stays. It's one of the first labs we do where my students have to use data in the ways they will be required to use data on the state exams. According to those who think I should only teach the power standards, I waste, pretty much, an entire week on this lab. I don't consider the time a waste at all. Unfortunately, with the adoption of power standards and parents like the other poster, I could be told to drop it in favor of teaching facts the students will memorize for the state exams. Trust me, that lab does more to prep my students for those exams and get them thinking than any dozen tidbits I could teach them in that same time.
I teach more thermodynamics than is required by the power standards because that's an area I'm really good at and, IMO, thermodynamics is the heart of chemistry. I think it's important for students to understand that the energy changes in chemical reactions are state functions...that you have to consider enthalpy and entropy together to determine if a reaction will take place..that controlling energy flow is critical to controlling chemical reactions. This is where I'm right at home so I can teach it to levels I can't teach other topics.
Fortunately, AP chemistry is not an issue. There you teach it all and expect the students to keep up. There's no cutting material in an AP class. Students just have to work harder to fit it in.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-05-2012 at 02:59 PM..
If you want more for your child, you are more than welcome to pay for it. Nothing is stopping you. Pulling money out of the system is unfair to everyone left in. It's not YOUR money. It's the tax payers money. All of the tax payers. Those with kids and those without. THEY are paying for an educated society to live in. Sorry, but public education isn't about YOUR child. If you want more for your child, write a check. When I felt my dd needed more, I wrote a $4000 check to Sylvan. I did not expect the system to cater to her.
Quote:"Pulling money out of the system is unfair to everyone left in. It's not YOUR money."
I see. The $1500/mo that I write the check for property taxes (that is only the fraction that goes directly to the school system), is not MY money. I guess I didn't earn it, and I picked it off my money tree in the back yard.
Putting money into a system that some taxpayers never use is unfair to them.
Quote:"All of the tax payers"
I believe I qualify as one of those.
Quote:" Sorry, but public education isn't about YOUR child."
I know it is not. I have none, don't plan to, and never will. I also will never ask other taxpayers to pay for something I produced, if I did have kids.
I think there should be a voucher system, where the students can go wherever they want (including private schools). The voucher will cover a fixed amount for each student, and if the school costs more than that, parents need to come up with the moeny.
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I think there should be a voucher system, where the students can go wherever they want (including private schools). The voucher will cover a fixed amount for each student, and if the school costs more than that, parents need to come up with the moeny.
Here's the problem with that, SuperSparkle.
Let's say that the vouchers gave parents the equivalent cost of a public education. For instance, in our district, we spend (rounding up for the sake of ease), $6,000 per child per year.
The private schools in our area are at least $15,000 a year.
Your system would actually benefit very few. The extremely wealthy, who can already afford the 15K tuition, will now have what amounts to a $9,000 gift from the taxpayer.
The middle class, the class who generally cares the most about education and has the most to lose when their children don't get a good one, will be between a rock and a hard place: Fork over $9,000 they don't have, or go to the inexpensive school.
For the lower class, it's a no-brainer: they won't be able to shake an extra $9,000 out of their couch cushions, so they'll take the voucher to the least expensive school.
Under this idea, we would have a two-class system: a system in which the very wealthy get an academically demanding education that genuinely prepares them for admission to a selective university, and an education for everyone else.
Crummy as it is in many ways, at least the current system allows for some degree of flexibility.
Although, since there is no requirement that private schools have any level of accreditation nor test children in any way, what will inevitably happen is that schools will develop which cater to vouchers.
Drop your kid off at 7 am, pick them up at 5 pm. Hand over your voucher for $6k. Your kids get straight As and a high school diploma and don't worry about tests or college.
I would like to know though, as a homeowner with no children at all, how the voucher people are going to compensate me for not using my property tax contribution?
Let's say that the vouchers gave parents the equivalent cost of a public education. For instance, in our district, we spend (rounding up for the sake of ease), $6,000 per child per year.
The private schools in our area are at least $15,000 a year.
Your system would actually benefit very few. The extremely wealthy, who can already afford the 15K tuition, will now have what amounts to a $9,000 gift from the taxpayer.
The middle class, the class who generally cares the most about education and has the most to lose when their children don't get a good one, will be between a rock and a hard place: Fork over $9,000 they don't have, or go to the inexpensive school.
For the lower class, it's a no-brainer: they won't be able to shake an extra $9,000 out of their couch cushions, so they'll take the voucher to the least expensive school.
Under this idea, we would have a two-class system: a system in which the very wealthy get an academically demanding education that genuinely prepares them for admission to a selective university, and an education for everyone else.
Crummy as it is in many ways, at least the current system allows for some degree of flexibility.
Quote:"The extremely wealthy, who can already afford the 15K tuition, will now have what amounts to a $9,000 gift from the taxpayer."
Not sure where the $9K 'gift' came from. Those students would get the same $6K voucher as everyone else. The $9K would come from the parents of the student that is going to the private school. There is no 'gift'.
Quote:"Fork over $9,000 they don't have, or go to the inexpensive school."
A good school does not have to be an expensive one. You are presuming that all private schools are better than all public. Absolutely not true. There are wonderful public schools, and there are crappy private ones.
Many of the public schools around where I live here in the Northeast are excellent (though they cost the taxpayer more than $6K per student).
Many lower and middle class families around here can not afford to live in an expensive town, where there is a tendency to have better schools, so without vouchers, you are condemning those students to go to a potentially worse school system. At least the voucher gives them an opportunity to go to a good school system, even though it is in another town. We do that both in MA and NH, don't know about other states.
This approach is less of a two-tier system than what we have today. Today, if you live in a lousy town with lousy schools, and can't afford to move to a town that has better schools, then you are stuck.
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It would be really nice if they'd let us teach.
Unfortunately, I have to spread some rep around. 
). Learning this fact or that isn't nearly as important as learning to think critically and to interpret and use data. Because I'm more expert in some areas than others and, sometimes, just have really great labs to go with the concepts that challenge my students, those are the ones I use to teach those skills. To lob them off because someone else said they're not important would lower the bar in my class.
I guess I didn't earn it, and I picked it off my money tree in the back yard.