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Let's just repeal all the social programs and see how people like having poor, sick, starving homeless children begging on the side of the road. That's normal for societies where the taxes are low and families provide such things for their own families and leave others to their own fates. With the corresponding reduction in taxes, perhaps charities would be able to fill the gap. If not, then the children should have picked better parents. It might even spawn a new generation of entrepreneurs, as long as the children could get around the child labor laws. If Gingrich is elected, that might just happen.
Let's just repeal all the social programs and see how people like having poor, sick, starving homeless children begging on the side of the road. That's normal for societies where the taxes are low and families provide such things for their own families and leave others to their own fates. With the corresponding reduction in taxes, perhaps charities would be able to fill the gap. If not, then the children should have picked better parents. It might even spawn a new generation of entrepreneurs, as long as the children could get around the child labor laws. If Gingrich is elected, that might just happen.
I'm stunned that anyone would want to sentence CHILDREN to whatever fate they're born into. I can see letting adults deal with the situation they've made for themselves, once you've given them the opportunity to get an education or learn a trade but not children. They didn't do anything.
If you ask my 14 yo, the child labor laws should be repealed. She wants a job so bad but isn't old enough to get one.
Quote:"First of all I doubt you pay anyone anything based on your insistence on posting here. "
You are welcome to come and visit the facilities anytime, just please wash off the liberal stench before you come.
Quote:"And you've haven't hired anything close to 800 anything."
I will show you the org charts. (not sure why I am doing this, as I enjoy watching the far left dig themselves into a hole, though I am sad for this country, as they are destroying it.)
Quote:"So why have American companies gone out and worked hard to undermine immigration regs and speed up the importation of foreign skilled labor? "
Easy. Because (except for many private schools), the education system in this country stinks. If you are a teacher, are you one of the vast majority that graduated in the bottom third of your college class?
Quote:"Which contradicts your nonsense about starting out engineers at what you claim you pay"
I said nothing about starting out engineers. My top engineers get that.
Quote:"Furthermore because we've allowed corps to lessen their tax burdens, many pay no tax at all."
Are we back to the golden goose thing again?
Quote:"... tells me that you live in fairy tales, such as the ones you've posted regarding your hiring 800 people and paying nearly 200 large. "
If the financial guys will let me, I can show you the books.... but since your opinions and values mean absolutely nothing to me, I don't think I will bother. BTW, I hope your kids are really, really good in school and expertise, otherwise someone from Bangalore will have their job.
Quote:"See you didn't sign any document regarding the public roads you traveled on, nor the electricity that powers the computer which allows you to post your dreck. Nor did you affirm your signature regarding computers, Internet, prescription drugs, and everything you use which comes from the commonwealth."
I gladly pay for most of those things, through taxes. Those are things I support. Electricity is a voluntary expense. Internet is a voluntary expense. Prescription drugs are a voluntary expense. I pay for roads, police, and fire protection through my taxes.
Quote:"But then it shouldn't be a surprise when a guy like you references fairy tales in his thinking, such as it is."
We are living in a fairy tale now, with The Brothers Grimm living on Pennsylvania Ave...
Quote:"Again, it's all about you and what suits you rather than the responsibility each generation has to the past and future ones."
1). I am only responsible for myself.
2). You owe me absolutely nothing (and I wouldn't take it if you did).
3). I owe you absolutely nothing
4). Anything that you do that creates a burden on society, you are liable for, in every way.
5). Anything I do that creates a burden on society, I are liable for, in every way.
Simple enough.
Sorry Sparky, but you're just makin things up. Completely and totally. Again its VERY hard to even begin to attempt to create a reply to this stuff. But lets just begin with one claim that you made, that USA education stinks.
Both Duke and MIT have stated that the bulk of their engineers DONT go into that field, including their grad engineering students end up doin something else. Why? Because there are few engineering jobs available and pay aint good. Which is exactly what the BLS and Paul Craig Roberts have said time and again, that the lack of engineering jobs being created by this economy is driving down wages in the field. Now in keeping with your tentative grasp on reality, you may think that Duke and MIT are lousy schools, but let me assure you, that they're not.
You're spinnin yarns Sparky, and really, I would be glad to see whatever proof you may have regarding what you pay and who you hire. Because all you have is anecdotes which in no way square up with the realty, that being, there exists a glut of engineers and scientists worldwide, American corps have gone out and weakened the immigration regs in order to drive down wages even further. And moreover, if you're bringin in foreign workers to this country, they're new, which means that you're payin starting engineers in your company, who have neither lived here nor worked here, the kind of pay you claimed. But we both know what you claimed aint true.
Face it, you came to this gunfight with a butter knife. You're living in a world of make believe. And you owe legions of former taxpayers plenty, but again, in keeping with the kind of guy you are, you want something for nothing. Sorry Sahib, whether you like it or not, whether you want to think as does a petulant child, reality says quite different.....
UGH. It's not programming. You're just calling that to make it a negative. It's logic. I don't need anyone to tell me that the collective buying power of a society beats the sum of the individual buying powers of all the individuals in that society. That's economics of scale. No programming needed.
No one is stealing from your children . Our children actually take from the system. If you want to make an argument that someone is being stolen from it would be the childless not those of us with children (but even they benefit by living in an educated society. My argument they are being stolen from actually rests in the fact that those of us with kids get a tax break they don't get (and we shouldn't get). Taxes should be based on income not on how many kids you have. Ditto for a write off for a mortgage, but, at least, all of us can take advantage of that one.) Wages tend to adjust to taxation so that the buying power of a particular job stays the same. Employers attract people based on the buying power of the income offered. The end result is we do not lose what you think we lose and we gain way more than we lose. The state will pay over $100K for each of my children's educatio and that is assuming they will not get financial aid for college (which they will if their father retires before they enter college).
If you choose not to leave, then the bill is yours until such a time as the majority votes to change it. I, and others like me, will fight you tooth and nail to keep you from stealing the educations from innocent children who would be denied an education simply by circumstance of their birth. They are the only victims here. You and I are not victims. We are here by choice. The simple fact we can leave if we want means we don't have to do this. We CHOOSE to do this. We know the rules and we agree to them by staying. We all have the option to vote with our feet at any time.
Um, no, the benefits I listed are not all local taxes. Interstate highway systems are paid for by states and the federal government. Our schools are paid for by the state. The infrastructure for my city, while maintained locally, was subsidized by the state and federal governments during construction. And who cares if it's local or federal? We benefit at all levels. For example, federal regulations and the departments that police them keep our neighborhoods safe from industrial waste. The list goes on and on and on. The fact is, the vast majority of us could not buy the standard of living we enjoy because of taxes without taxes.
I have my own issues with the tax code but I have decided that I'll take life with it the way it is compared to the life I'd have if I left for a country where I wouldn't pay as much in taxes. I work to change the tax code because I don't think that there should be a such thing as a marriage penalty and I don't think we should get deductions just for procreating. I consider those things, inherently, unfair. My neighbor who has no kids should not have to pay more taxes than me because I have kids. The government should not be subsidizing the choice to have kids. It's a personal choice. I favor an individual, flat percentage tax with no write offs except job related write offs and income would be adjusted by the employer in those cases. While I'd like this, I don't consider it stealing that I'm paying the taxes I am now. The bill is just distributed in a way I don't like but if my choice is this bill or no society, I'll take the bill.
I think it's a crime to deny children food, shelter, clothing and an education because their parents don't provide it. Children are the innocents here. They are vulnerable and they count on society to protect them. If that means I put a roof over mom's head to put one over theirs, so beit. It's the lesser of the evils. It would be uncivilized and heartless to do any less. Society owes it to these children to take care of them. They are where they are through no fault of their own and even if they were at fault, they are children so you can't count that against them. That adults use children to get a roof over their head and food in their stomachs is a reality but it's irrlevent to the fact there are children here who need help. If you really want to make sure the parents don't benefit, you could always give your spare bedroom to one or two of these kids.
You are correct that everyone is free to donate to charity. What does that have to do with the responsiblities of a civilized society to the children in that society? Are you, really, suggesting they should have to rely on the whims of someone to give them what they need? Again, you are punishing the children for the sins of the adults. Why do you hate these kids so much? What did they do to you to deserve your hatred? Charities are great but they are often under funded. What are these kids to do when the charity has no food to give them? It is just selfish to want to keep everything for yourself while enjoying the benefits of living in socieyt. It is cruel to not rescue children who are born into unfortunate cirucumstances just because you want to keep more money. Fortunately, you live in a society that won't let you do either. Haven't you ever heard the saying "Unto those who are given much, much will be expected"? It is up to those of us who have to take care of those who don't have. Unfortunately, there are people like you who would tell them they're on their own so we voted, as a society, to have a public support system to help these kid that provides the basics and charities provide the rest.
On a bright note, did everyone read that the Salvation army collected record amounts this past red kettle season? WTG to all who tossed in some change.
1)Of course it's brainwashing. When you are unwilling to even question the system, when you're pushing people out the door because they peacefully disagree, well, that's brainwashing.
2)Collective, VOLUNTARY, association is certainly cost effective. Some things have to be collectivized. Fire protection, for example. If you don't put the fire out next to a home because they haven't paid for fire protection, it might spread to mine, where I have. I get that. What YOU don't get, is that other things, like health care and education, are best chosen according to what every family WANTS and NEEDS. There is no one size fits all there.
3)Again, when you take my hard earned money away in the form of taxes, under pain to prison, it is STEALING. If I take your money out of your wallet, at gunpoint, to donate to the Salvation Army, a fabulous organization, by the way, isn't that called stealing? Wouldn't you call the police?? I don't see a difference between me doing and the IRS doing it.
4)I pay for my public schools and police, fire, local roads, libraries, parks out of my LOCAL taxes. Why are local taxes better than federal? Because I can drive down to city hall and protest my property tax, or bond issuance, or vote out a mayor and city council more easily that I can go deal with the IRS, a federal organization. My city is more responsive to me than the federal government.
5)There are plenty of charities (and yes, I donate through my church AND through United Way) who can and should help those children whose parents don't support them, or can't. Why hyperbolize? I don't hate children. It is NOT the government's job of feed and house anyone. I think that if our tax code were more fair, charities would be much more supported. I completely agree with you that it is important to show charity and help as others as much as possible- but it's not the job of the GOVERNMENT to do so. We should all tithe and help as much as we can. Think of all the money that is being wasted because the government is running the charity. Wouldn't it be more cost efficient to help people directly?
Seriously, where do you think you would be without society???
The marketplace is great for adults with ambition. I believe in the marketplace. I participate in it. However, I believe we're talking about children born to parents who would not see to their educations if it weren't for a public education system. How will the market place help them??? How about kids whose parents refuse to participate in the marketplace? Are they to starve to death? Sorry but we need both the marketplace AND a safety net for children born into bad situations.
I think individuals have a responsibility to take care of themselves and their children, however, when they fail to do so, society must step in. What would we be if we didn't? That said, I do think the current system needs to change but I'm not going to accuse anyone of stealing MY MONEY (as if my tax money is mine -- seriously, jobs would just pay less if we didn't have taxes) in the meaintime. I'm fully aware that living in a society means I contribute to the pot. The portion I contribute isn't mine. It belongs to society. I'm part of society and I can voice my opinion on how it should be spent, but at the end of the day, it's spent how the majority says it should be spent. I understand and accept that as the price of living in this particular society. I also understand I can move to any other country I want any time I want. I'm educated enough that I could get the paperwork to make the move.
So.....if your tax money isn't yours (unbelievable...) then, why not donate it all? Seriously? Move to an apartment, sell your cars, and give it all away. Why not? Don't you feel....selfish?
We ALL benefit from the things that society funds including public education. People are kidding themselves if they think they don't. For most of us, the benefits outweigh the cost as we couldn't purchase the services we use on our own. Could you imagine what our roads would look like if everyone had their patches of road they were responsible for? What if my neighbor saw no need to pave his and I did? What if he didn't think pot holes needed fixing?
I really don't get the attitude that CHILDREN should be flushed because of what their parents decide WRT their educations. The children in question didn't do anything to deserve that. Even if public education did not benefit society, it would be the right thing to do for this reason alone.
Yeah it's basic common sense. But what the recidivists on this thread want is the destruction of public education in order to fill in the gap with one that makes a profit for the tech/book/hedge funds who all stand to make a huge profit from the privatization of public education. Notice they never yap about highways, or electrical systems or enormous waste in the military, naw none of the that. Just education. That's telling in of itself.
"Society" is nothing but a buzzword used by the folks from LeftyLand to justify whatever intrusion into the lives of individuals and families is on their agenda at the present.
We have a better institution for solving our disputes; it's called a marketplace. And it can be structured to protect those who would otherwise "fall through the cracks" -- just as long as control remains at the local level and the bureucratic empire buliders and their pointing, grunting, dysfunctional clientele can't get their hands on the rewards of honest people's efforts.
It's breaking down, and if you and your friends come running to us when the foibles and fantasies are no longer sustainable, we will provide you with the security you seek -- just not at the level of your Utopian dreams.
You can voice your unrealistic ideas as much as you like; that's what the First Amendment is about; but be prepared to keep your head down and your hands busy, because I don't think you have much to bring to the table.
Sorry but this is ridiculous. The fact that you can post anything on this thread is because society created, through public funding, the mechanisms needed for electronic communication. The marketplace in no way could have created the dams, the water projects, the initial and continuing funding for both computers and Internet. Much of it has been privatized, but only long after the biggest and most productive parts had been initially funded by taxpayers. And the risk of getting reprimanded, what you're posting is the fantasy BS of rightwing boilerplate....
1)Of course it's brainwashing. When you are unwilling to even question the system, when you're pushing people out the door because they peacefully disagree, well, that's brainwashing.
2)Collective, VOLUNTARY, association is certainly cost effective. Some things have to be collectivized. Fire protection, for example. If you don't put the fire out next to a home because they haven't paid for fire protection, it might spread to mine, where I have. I get that. What YOU don't get, is that other things, like health care and education, are best chosen according to what every family WANTS and NEEDS. There is no one size fits all there.
3)Again, when you take my hard earned money away in the form of taxes, under pain to prison, it is STEALING. If I take your money out of your wallet, at gunpoint, to donate to the Salvation Army, a fabulous organization, by the way, isn't that called stealing? Wouldn't you call the police?? I don't see a difference between me doing and the IRS doing it.
4)I pay for my public schools and police, fire, local roads, libraries, parks out of my LOCAL taxes. Why are local taxes better than federal? Because I can drive down to city hall and protest my property tax, or bond issuance, or vote out a mayor and city council more easily that I can go deal with the IRS, a federal organization. My city is more responsive to me than the federal government.
5)There are plenty of charities (and yes, I donate through my church AND through United Way) who can and should help those children whose parents don't support them, or can't. Why hyperbolize? I don't hate children. It is NOT the government's job of feed and house anyone. I think that if our tax code were more fair, charities would be much more supported. I completely agree with you that it is important to show charity and help as others as much as possible- but it's not the job of the GOVERNMENT to do so. We should all tithe and help as much as we can. Think of all the money that is being wasted because the government is running the charity. Wouldn't it be more cost efficient to help people directly?
You're using power which is generated by federally funded water projects, you're using computers and Internet which were invented by federal agencies, which also continue to fund their R&D, you use road and highways which have been funded by the FEDS, you live on land which has been developed only after the Corps of Engineers did their magic.
If you're claiming that all of that was based on the theft due to taxation, then you're a criminal, due to the fact that you benefit from that theft. Turn yourself in and stop being a thief.
You're using power which is generated by federally funded water projects, you're using computers and Internet which were invented by federal agencies, which also continue to fund their R&D, you use road and highways which have been funded by the FEDS, you live on land which has been developed only after the Corps of Engineers did their magic.
If you're claiming that all of that was based on the theft due to taxation, then you're a criminal, due to the fact that you benefit from that theft. Turn yourself in and stop being a thief.
Great post....unfortunately, I need to spread some rep around.
I'm stunned that anyone would want to sentence CHILDREN to whatever fate they're born into. I can see letting adults deal with the situation they've made for themselves, once you've given them the opportunity to get an education or learn a trade but not children. They didn't do anything.
If you ask my 14 yo, the child labor laws should be repealed. She wants a job so bad but isn't old enough to get one.
What stuns me is that people seem to assume that they had a right to be born into a family that is not poor. Why is there no more consideration that "there but for the grace of God, go I"? I have no problem with atheists ignoring the circumstances of their birth, but it does gall me when those who follow Jesus Christ ignore what he said about the least of these, His brothers. Ivory reminded us of his dictum, from him to whom much is given, much will be expected. I've given my life, so I have no qualms about my judgment. It does make me wonder how those will fare who have spent their earthly life building up their stores and spending it on themselves and their own families, while dropping a bit into the coffers of their favorite charities. I don't obsess about it, but I do wonder.
There don't seem to be any pangs of conscience from those who are content to let the children of the poor suffer for their parents' choices. That's one reason why ghettos are so useful--they keep those unpleasantries away from the faces of the haves and their children. As long as it is possible to dehumanize the poor, it will be possible to justify neglecting their children. It reminds me of the Twilight Zone movie, where the bigot kept falling into the realities of his victims.
The children of the wealthy will likely never have to deal with the experience of coming home to a cold home with no electricity and a broken front door, mom in the next room with a new boyfriend, and a mayonnaise sandwich for supper. That's why so many of my students willing eat the slop they get at school for their free lunch. When the alternative is nothing, slop fills an empty stomach.
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. Our children actually take from the system. If you want to make an argument that someone is being stolen from it would be the childless not those of us with children (but even they benefit by living in an educated society. My argument they are being stolen from actually rests in the fact that those of us with kids get a tax break they don't get (and we shouldn't get). Taxes should be based on income not on how many kids you have. Ditto for a write off for a mortgage, but, at least, all of us can take advantage of that one.) Wages tend to adjust to taxation so that the buying power of a particular job stays the same. Employers attract people based on the buying power of the income offered. The end result is we do not lose what you think we lose and we gain way more than we lose. The state will pay over $100K for each of my children's educatio and that is assuming they will not get financial aid for college (which they will if their father retires before they enter college). 
How about kids whose parents refuse to participate in the marketplace? Are they to starve to death? Sorry but we need both the marketplace AND a safety net for children born into bad situations.
-- seriously, jobs would just pay less if we didn't have taxes) in the meaintime. I'm fully aware that living in a society means I contribute to the pot. The portion I contribute isn't mine. It belongs to society. I'm part of society and I can voice my opinion on how it should be spent, but at the end of the day, it's spent how the majority says it should be spent. I understand and accept that as the price of living in this particular society. I also understand I can move to any other country I want any time I want. I'm educated enough that I could get the paperwork to make the move.
We ALL benefit from the things that society funds including public education. People are kidding themselves if they think they don't. For most of us, the benefits outweigh the cost as we couldn't purchase the services we use on our own. Could you imagine what our roads would look like if everyone had their patches of road they were responsible for? What if my neighbor saw no need to pave his and I did? What if he didn't think pot holes needed fixing? 