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Oh, for Pete's sake, poisoning! You have made the rest of your post irrelevant.
You have some awfully high expectations of a teacher, super-human, in fact. Sometimes it is impossible to figure out "who started it". It's not always the person the teacher thinks started it. Sometimes kids get punished inappropriately b/c the teacher thinks they know who started the misbehavior. That, in fact, happened to me once in jr. high. Was that "justice"? (I have not, in fact, spent the rest of my life ruminating over this situation, like some on this board apparently have with discipline they received decades ago. Discussing this issue brought it back to me.)
As a matter of fact, it wasn't "deacdes ago", it was as recently as last year, and am only now beginnig to get over it. Also, I admit that other factors, not just the group discipline might have contributed (though that's not to say it didn't affect me). Anyway, I don't think momma bear's point is irrelevant, it's common sense. You wouldn't lock up a whole neighbourhood if there was a murder would you? That would be illegal!
Justice is not fair. Never has been. I can't take a pair of knitting needles on a plane because someone else might use them as a weapon. I can't take a whole bottle of shampoo either because someone else might try to smuggle explosives on board. I can't buy a 30 day supply of allergy medication because someone else uses it to make meth. I pay higher prices at the store because some people steal. Where do you think justice is fair?
I teach chemistry. I've had problems with someone damaging equipment in labs. Solution, no more labs. Are my classes happy? Nope but I can't conduct labs when some students insist on damaging things so nobody gets to do labs. Today I gave a quiz in one of my classes because they couldn't stay on task yesterday. Guess what happened after the quiz???? Surprise, surprise, no issues with staying on task today. The only issue I had is one student got sent to the office because he wanted to argue about me giving a quiz.
Sorry but mass discipline works. That's why it's used. Last time I looked poisoning didn't work so it's not used.
The examples that you quote are not relevant to group punishment. They are natural consequences which are put in place to protect society. Group punishment, on the other hand, is almost always solely punitive and has no real protective function. The labs is an example of a natural consequence and might be justified: the pop quiz on the other hand was not. The fact that you KNEW who the culprits were only serves to make things even worse. For the umpteenth time just because it works doesn't mean it's right. And more often than not, it is ineffective, leads to disrespect for authority, and in extreme cases can even lead to mutiny (it did in 1 US high school). Not exactly what teachers should be encouraging
The examples that you quote are not relevant to group punishment. They are natural consequences which are put in place to protect society. Group punishment, on the other hand, is almost always solely punitive and has no real protective function. The labs is an example of a natural consequence and might be justified: the pop quiz on the other hand was not. The fact that you KNEW who the culprits were only serves to make things even worse. For the umpteenth time just because it works doesn't mean it's right. And more often than not, it is ineffective, leads to disrespect for authority, and in extreme cases can even lead to mutiny (it did in 1 US high school). Not exactly what teachers should be encouraging
They are not natural consequences. There is nothing natural about my not being able to knit on a plane or buy allergy medications. They ARE mass punishments. No one can knit on an airplane now because of the actions of a few. I'd call that mass punishment as is having to go through security where you're subject to being frisked. No one with allergies can buy a 30 day supply of allergy meds. You don't see this as group punishment??? Try living through allergy season having to choose which days to breathe.... What about paying higher prices for goods because some people steal??? That's a mass punishment. I didn't steal. Why am I paying for what was stolen? You're, conveniently, ignoring that we have mass punishments in society.
Wrong again. The pop quiz is a natural consequence. Teachers need formative assessments. If the class isn't cooperating then I have to force one. I just did. That it has the added benefit of kids self policing the trouble makers because they don't want another one is just gravy.
Disrespect of authority is taught at home. I grew up with mass discipline in the classroom and never disrespected authority because of it. I just got ticked off at the other kids who got us into trouble.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-09-2012 at 06:35 PM..
Are you really allowed to teach Chemistry without labs?
I don't see classroom rules that maintain equipment and safety in the same category as mass discipline. I also don't see having laws that protect the safety of the general public in the same category as mass discipline in schools. There have to be rules and procedures that protect the general public and that make the classroom function well.
However, when rules are broken the person breaking the rule should bear the consequences. If you don't know who did it, then you don't know. You can't always know. It is not appropriate to punish 25 kids when you know that 5 are guilty.
In your case (quiz) the kids who are the most disadvantaged are the ones who cannot possibly be guilty because they were not even there. The kids who are guilty were there and know about the quiz. The ones that were out don't know about it and are more likely to get a low grade as a result of your mass discipline.
How is that OK?
You really don't get it do you?
If I have someone damaging equipment during labs, my focus has to be them and not the other 28 students in the class. This creates an unsafe environement for labs so no labs. If I can't conduct labs safely, they cannot be conducted at all. I cannot safely police the bad behavior of some while assisting others with the lab and keeping them safe.
Fortunately, there are lots of videos of labs being done to show. It's not the same thing but no one is going to get hurt.
Who said the kids who weren't there had to take the quiz??? I never said that.
Disrespect of authority is taught at home. I grew up with mass discipline in the classroom and never disrespected authority because of it. I just got ticked off at the other kids who got us into trouble.
Currently, we are at one of the lowest points in the history of education.
What is dominating today's society is mass disrespect for anything (authority included).
The result is a dysfunctional society (which is far worse than messing around at school).
That is a point young people cannot see, because they did not live in different educational environments.
I challenge any teacher, adult, parent or educator to ask children to name 3 things they respect in life. In most cases, they will get no response. Not their parents, grandparents, teachers, their country or flag. At best, it will be a celebrity, an athlete... and that's it.
Many parents do not understand the responsibility of parenthood, or cannot apply it. A single mother that works all day cannot educate 5 children who roam the streets. Many parents lead busy lives and prefer letting their kids do their thing upstairs in their room. A video game or iPad are no substitute for education. The list goes on and on...
Back to the OP: a teacher is not LE, or sheriff. Otherwise, they may spend all day investigating and arguing with children and their parents. It is easy to waste 30 minutes investigating who really started it. And who messed around... Yes, I pinched him, but he took my pencil before, ect, etc...
Currently, we are at one of the lowest points in the history of education.
What is dominating today's society is mass disrespect for anything (authority is only one aspect).
The result is a dysfunctional society (which is far worse than messing around at school).
That is a point young people cannot see, because they did not live in different educational environments.
I challenge any teacher, adult, parent or educator to ask children to name 3 things they respect in life. In most cases, they will get no answer. Not their parents, grandparents, teachers, their country or flag. At best, it will be a celebrity, an athlete... and that's it.
I agree. Too bad I'm not an english teacher. Write about three things you respect would be a good writing prompt.
If I have someone damaging equipment during labs, my focus has to be them and not the other 28 students in the class. This creates an unsafe environement for labs so no labs. If I can't conduct labs safely, they cannot be conducted at all. I cannot safely police the bad behavior of some while assisting others with the lab and keeping them safe.
I am not questioning WHY you want to stop labs. I get it. You need to set your classroom up so that it is not a free for all.
What I am questioning is whether it is allowed. At our school it would not be permitted. The teacher would be forced to teach the labs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Who said the kids who weren't there had to take the quiz??? I never said that.
I assumed that if you were giving a quiz then you were giving one to everyone. I also do not believe that assessments should be used as punishment.
They are not natural consequences. There is nothing natural about my not being able to knit on a plane or buy allergy medications. They ARE mass punishments. No one can knit on an airplane now because of the actions of a few. I'd call that mass punishment as is having to go through security where you're subject to being frisked. No one with allergies can buy a 30 day supply of allergy meds. You don't see this as group punishment??? Try living through allergy season having to choose which days to breathe.... What about paying higher prices for goods because some people steal??? That's a mass punishment. I didn't steal. Why am I paying for what was stolen? You're, conveniently, ignoring that we have mass punishments in society.
Wrong again. The pop quiz is a natural consequence. Teachers need formative assessments. If the class isn't cooperating then I have to force one. I just did. That it has the added benefit of kids self policing the trouble makers because they don't want another one is just gravy.
Disrespect of authority is taught at home. I grew up with mass discipline in the classroom and never disrespected authority because of it. I just got ticked off at the other kids who got us into trouble.
If you want to take a liberal view, they are "mass punishments", but they are indirect, which means that the intention is to protect society, not to punish. People might groan , but I don't have any problem if they protect society. The pop quiz on the other hand was intended to punish. Yes, you need to assess your class. But the fact that you are giving a test to punish implies that you don't give tests regularly. Also, natural consequences are unavoidable, as society might be put in danger without them. The pop quiz was most certainly avoidable, and there were far better ways to sort it out ( like punishing individually, which has the same effect, but none of the moral issues ). Regarding self policing, it is very unlikely that the class will be able to restrain a bully. Should he be allowed to hold the whole class to ransom? That is not part of life. An adult faced with this can just leave his job. A teenager has no such option. And more often than not, it does breed disrespect for authority, because teachers are seen as being unfair, and after a while, students might feel "hey, why be good when we will all be punished anyway". They're not stupid. I'm afraid that your head is stuck in the sand. Today, it might work, but if you do this regularly, the whole class will start disregarding the rules. I should know, it happened to my own class.
If you want to take a liberal view, they are "mass punishments", but they are indirect, which means that the intention is to protect society, not to punish. People might groan , but I don't have any problem if they protect society. The pop quiz on the other hand was intended to punish. Yes, you need to assess your class. But the fact that you are giving a test to punish implies that you don't give tests regularly. Also, natural consequences are unavoidable, as society might be put in danger without them. The pop quiz was most certainly avoidable, and there were far better ways to sort it out ( like punishing individually, which has the same effect, but none of the moral issues ). Regarding self policing, it is very unlikely that the class will be able to restrain a bully. Should he be allowed to hold the whole class to ransom? That is not part of life. An adult faced with this can just leave his job. A teenager has no such option. And more often than not, it does breed disrespect for authority, because teachers are seen as being unfair, and after a while, students might feel "hey, why be good when we will all be punished anyway". They're not stupid. I'm afraid that your head is stuck in the sand. Today, it might work, but if you do this regularly, the whole class will start disregarding the rules. I should know, it happened to my own class.
Well, my intention is to educate and protect the class. Why doesn't that count? If it is fair to not allow me to knit on a plane, it's fair for me to not allow students who weren't part of the misbehavior to have a privlidge pulled. They're the same thing.
You're just twisting things to make mass discipline in the classroom different from mass discipline used everywhere else. Whatever...
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