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Let's make sweeping generalizations about whole cultures to excuse our problems and to excuse any attempt at changing things in our schools. Then let's state matter-of-factly that something different wouldn't work, when we haven't even tried it.
I don't waste my time responding in depth to these kind of poor arguments, but FYI, the students' 15 minutes in Finland isn't "for" asking the teacher questions, and I honestly have no idea where you could have gotten that information -- it looks like another stubborn assumption. Their 15 minutes is free time so the students can be people and have a short break from cramming their heads. Insisting that every minute in school buildings be used for the purpose of academics (and that there must be no other way to do things) is a strongly American fallacy.
Let's make sweeping generalizations about whole cultures to excuse our problems and to excuse any attempt at changing things in our schools. Then let's state matter-of-factly that something different wouldn't work, when we haven't even tried it.
I don't waste my time responding in depth to these kind of poor arguments, but FYI, the students' 15 minutes in Finland isn't "for" asking the teacher questions, and I honestly have no idea where you could have gotten that information -- it looks like another stubborn assumption. Their 15 minutes is free time so the students can be people and have a short break from cramming their heads. Insisting that every minute in school buildings be used for the purpose of academics (and that there must be no other way to do things) is a strongly American fallacy.
They aren't sweeping generalizations. They're observations of teachers I know who have taught abroad. There is a great difference in how teens are viewed here and abroad. They are children to be monitored every moment here. They are nearly adults in other countries and held accountable. We coddle our children and hold the adults around them to blame when things go wrong. That's not the case in other countries. That makes a HUGE difference WRT what you can and cannot do. Since our kids must be supervised at all times, we will never go to a 15 minute passing time but, as I stated before, it's not needed. By the last 10 minutes of just about any class the kids are off task and socializing usually while lined up at the door waiting for the bell to ring. We don't need to give them a longer passing time because they don't need it. It's not like they're going to stay and ask questions of the teacher as students do in other countries where they are held accountable for learning the material. Here we hold teachers accountable for student learning not students. There are many societal differences that prevent us from using education models that work better in other countries. In short, we don't have their kids or their parents. We have ours and that limits us as to what we can and cannot do. Unless you are going to change society you cannot model our system after the system in societies that are different from ours.
We can't because we make teachers responsible for what kids do. In Finland students are responsible for themselves. However, we don't need to. Just walk down the hall and peek in in the last 10 minutes of just about any class and you'll see kids either lined up at the door waiting for the bell to ring or socializing. Trust me they are getting their social time. What the 15 minutes after classes does in Finland is it allows students who have questions to get them answered right after the class where the material was learned. Our kids wouldn't use it for that. Our kids are not active participants in their own learning. They view education as something that is forced upon them.
That right there is your problem then. Teachers at my schools didn't allow you to do anything that could be construed as getting ready to leave until the bell rang. They also, gasp, allowed kids to use the restroom during class.
By the way, how about if there are more kids that need to use the restroom during the passing period than there are stalls? Waiting for another kid to finish will greatly diminish your golden five minutes. (No one stopped at lockers, either, at both schools I went to that had lockers. There wasn't time to put your book and folder in for one class, take our your book and folder for the next class, and still get to class on time. That would be doubly true if you had to also use that time to use the restroom for fear that your power hungry teacher in the next period wouldn't let you use it.)
That right there is your problem then. Teachers at my schools didn't allow you to do anything that could be construed as getting ready to leave until the bell rang. They also, gasp, allowed kids to use the restroom during class.
By the way, how about if there are more kids that need to use the restroom during the passing period than there are stalls? Waiting for another kid to finish will greatly diminish your golden five minutes. (No one stopped at lockers, either, at both schools I went to that had lockers. There wasn't time to put your book and folder in for one class, take our your book and folder for the next class, and still get to class on time. That would be doubly true if you had to also use that time to use the restroom for fear that your power hungry teacher in the next period wouldn't let you use it.)
I was answering the charge that our kids need a 15 minute passing time so they can socialize.
Personally, I don't allow my students to line up at the door but I can tell you that most use "work" time as social time. I can't make them work. I'd cut out work time altogether if I thought teaching the entire hour would do any good. Kids can handle about 25 minutes of lecture before they tune it out. Unfortunately, they do not use the remaining class time well.
In my school, a lack of stalls is not the issue. I've gone and stood in the bathroom during passing time and there is never a line. I don't recall there being lines when I was in school and I went to a HUGE high school. If you stand in the halls it becomes apparent that the issue is that passing time is used as social time in my school...in addition to most of "work" time. Procrastination seems to reign at my school.
That right there is your problem then. Teachers at my schools didn't allow you to do anything that could be construed as getting ready to leave until the bell rang. They also, gasp, allowed kids to use the restroom during class.
Yes, I remember getting the look from a teacher if we started collecting books or getting ready to leave before the bell rang. You (and I) went to school with a lot of new immigrants and students from working class families. Obviously things are different with higher SES students. And their teachers.
They aren't sweeping generalizations. They're observations of teachers I know who have taught abroad. There is a great difference in how teens are viewed here and abroad. They are children to be monitored every moment here. They are nearly adults in other countries and held accountable. We coddle our children and hold the adults around them to blame when things go wrong. That's not the case in other countries. That makes a HUGE difference WRT what you can and cannot do. Since our kids must be supervised at all times, we will never go to a 15 minute passing time
You are generalizing that all students in the U.S. would respond in a certain way and would not react positively to changes. You are also saying that since we look at students a certain way, we cannot change how we look at them (and treat them), which is not only circular logic, but your typical defeatist mindset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
but, as I stated before, it's not needed
Obviously this is not a fact, it is your opinion -- which is quite a presumptuous opinion, seeing that you are speaking for millions of students everywhere. I'm willing to bet that most students, and many teachers and parents completely disagree with you.
Even if some classes have students "off task" near the end of the class (despite that public school policy is generally against that, and admins will come down on that sort of thing if they see it) -- that doesn't mean they don't need more time in between classes. It would actually be more of an argument to make it "official" instead of a thing that "sometimes" happens behind closed doors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Unless you are going to change society you cannot model our system after the system in societies that are different from ours.
Nobody says that we should completely swap out our model with another one. Instead, intelligent people have been suggesting that we can take many successful pieces of a model from others, and adapt them to improve our own system. The goal, as I have repeated tens of times to you and others on this forum, is not to take the Finnish model of education and reproduce it here in entirety. You and many others continually make this point that we cannot "do what others do," but you are attacking a strawman this whole time. The real point is that when we have a problem, we must be willing to look at what others do, and try out new things that appear to make sense -- ESPECIALLY when these other methods make more sense according to research in the sciences and humanities. The first step for you is to get over this belief that what we do in schools cannot affect students differently if "society" doesnt change first. The reality is that if we do not even give students a chance to be responsible, they will continue to live down to our expectations that they cannot control themselves. If we continue to fear the rare parent who would yell at us for not treating their teenager like a 2 year old, then we will continue to have a whole SYSTEM that is based on fear and anachronisms.
The "fact" is that everyone who studies philosophy of education and/or developmental psychology KNOWS that our schools are not healthy places, and FAR from being optimal for learning. While our "society" may be different from ones in other countries, it is extremely foolish for people to say that we shouldn't change (or even TRY to change) our school policies that clearly do not make sense from a HUMANISTIC point of view -- that is, no matter what nationality of kids you put in our schools, there would still be problems with our policies. We cannot wait for the whole populace to change before updating our outdated model -- we must be brave and take a first step -- allowing mistakes, discussion, and growth.
The alternative? You will have kids desperately excusing themselves from class for the rest of your career. Enjoy.
You are generalizing that all students in the U.S. would respond in a certain way and would not react positively to changes. You are also saying that since we look at students a certain way, we cannot change how we look at them (and treat them), which is not only circular logic, but your typical defeatist mindset.
Obviously this is not a fact, it is your opinion -- which is quite a presumptuous opinion, seeing that you are speaking for millions of students everywhere. I'm willing to bet that most students, and many teachers and parents completely disagree with you.
Even if some classes have students "off task" near the end of the class (despite that public school policy is generally against that, and admins will come down on that sort of thing if they see it) -- that doesn't mean they don't need more time in between classes. It would actually be more of an argument to make it "official" instead of a thing that "sometimes" happens behind closed doors.
Nobody says that we should completely swap out our model with another one. Instead, intelligent people have been suggesting that we can take many successful pieces of a model from others, and adapt them to improve our own system. The goal, as I have repeated tens of times to you and others on this forum, is not to take the Finnish model of education and reproduce it here in entirety. You and many others continually make this point that we cannot "do what others do," but you are attacking a strawman this whole time. The real point is that when we have a problem, we must be willing to look at what others do, and try out new things that appear to make sense. The first step for you is to get over this belief that what we do in schools cannot affect students differently if "society" doesnt change first. The reality is that if we do not even give students a chance to be responsible, they will continue to live down to our expectations that they cannot control themselves. If we continue to fear the rare parent who would yell at us for not treating their teenager like a 2 year old, then we will continue to have a system that is based on fear and anachronisms.
The "fact" is that everyone who studies philosophy of education and/or developmental psychology KNOWS that our schools are neither healthy places nor conducive to being a true intellectual environment. While our "society" may be different from ones in other countries, it is extremely foolish for people to say that we shouldn't change (or even TRY to change) our school policies that clearly do not make sense from a HUMANISTIC point of view -- that is, no matter what nationality of kids you put in our schools, there would still be problems with our policies. We cannot wait for the whole populace to change before updating our outdated model -- we must be brave and take a first step -- allowing mistakes, discussion, and growth. The alternative? You will have kids desperately excusing themselves from class for the rest of your career. Enjoy.
I am really, really curious what grade you teach and for how long you have done it.
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When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.
I see, is it time to criticize my ideas based on my credentials, instead of their inherent value?
I'll tell you this: You can find teachers of 40 years who believe that students should have longer time between periods. You can also find people with zero experience in education who believe the same thing.
Just as you can find veteran teachers -- and people with zero experience in education -- who believe 5 minutes is fine.
Just as you can find teachers with 20 years experience who don't know what the hell they are doing, and who have never really thought about education or human development in their lives.
I will tell you one more thing: Students don't run out of my classroom. They respect me and enjoy learning new things. That's because I treat them like humans.
I see, is it time to criticize my ideas based on my credentials, instead of their inherent value?
I'll tell you this: You can find teachers of 40 years who believe that students should have longer time between periods. You can also find people with zero experience in education who believe the same thing.
Just as you can find veteran teachers -- and people with zero experience in education -- who believe 5 minutes is fine.
Just as you can find teachers with 20 years experience who don't know what the hell they are doing, and who have never really thought about education or human development in their lives.
I will tell you one more thing: Students don't run out of my classroom. They respect me and enjoy learning new things. That's because I treat them like humans.
That didn't answer my question.
They never ran out of mine either - ever. They respected me and judging from their nationally normed tests, were learning well more than an adequate amount. Like I stated earlier this was never an issue for me, kids hardly ever asked. The few that were a problem got resolved in a manner I found acceptable.
Again, I am really, really curious as to what grade you have taught and how long.
__________________
When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.
Of course, as someone who cares about research, you know that standardized tests mostly represent socioeconomic status, not very much about the teachers.
I purposefully withhold most personal details from this forum so that I cannot be attacked by ad hominems. As I stated previously, it literally does not matter how many years of experience I have, as that alone does not prove anything. I am willing to state (already have in many threads actually) that my statements are strongly geared to the high school level, as that is, by far, my level of familiarity. That doesn't mean my ideas can't apply in some way to other levels, it just means that they would have to be more carefully adapted -- and more people with various developmental understandings brought into the conversation. Of course, I am always willing to listen to other peoples' ideas about how and what to change. What I will never agree with is the complacent attitude that change is impossible, and "things are just alright anyways" so we don't have to do anything different, even if it were possible...
I also do not blame students for systemic problems, even when there are individual issues that inevitably happen.
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