Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Honestly, the only difference I really see in gifted adults is difficulty fitting in. If you're gifted enough to stand out as an adult, you're often emotionally challenged. The rest of us seem to have pretty much normalized over time.
1. Perhaps your sample is smaller than it needs to be, then. Studies involving limited numbers often are unreliable.
2. Cite?
3. I'm curious as to where the "us" comes from here, since you stated you're not gifted.
1. Perhaps your sample is smaller than it needs to be, then. Studies involving limited numbers often are unreliable.
2. Cite?
3. I'm curious as to where the "us" comes from here, since you stated you're not gifted.
Actually, with 20 years in R&D and engineering, my sample is far from small. Most of my friends through school were considered gifted. No I am not gifted. Far from it. I just hang out with a lot of gifted people. At least, formerly gifted people.
Us referred to the rest of us. The non gifted crowd. Many of whom are now indistinguishible from the gifted crowd of the past. In spite of not having a gifted bone in my body, I rose to the level of and worked alongside many who were gifted through the years. I really don't see much difference between them and me. My experience is that hard work and perseverance matter more than IQ as adults and given time, many people will catch up to the gifted. I'm not gifted but I held my own against engineers who were. Yes, many of them started college at 16 but what does that mean 10 years later or 20 years later? As time goes on, being the first one in college and out fades as others do what you did and sometimes more. It's not what you have, it's what you do with what you have. IQ really doesn't matter for adults. At least not in the sense that you'd pick a number and declare anyone above it "gifted". I know plenty of people with IQ's of 120 who perform at levels higher than people with IQ's of 140.
I just don't think IQ has the meaning as adults it has as kids. For kids, yes it matters because it's a measure of how far ahead you are. For adults, it's really just a number unless you're way at the extremes. In the middle, it's more of a measure of how easily things come to you. It makes little, practical, difference as all the next person has to do is be willing to work a little harder to attain what a gifted person attains. I don't see it making a real difference in adults.
No citations to give here. Just look around you. How many gifted adults do you know compared to how many gifted kids you knew in school. For the most part, for all their "gifts" they seem to have blended into the woodwork as other who are not as gifted chose the same career paths and same degrees. Once it mattered because it influenced things like GPA but there are other things that matter more once you're out in the real world.
Because of my career choices, I've been exposed to more formerly gifted children than most and I don't see them standing out like they once did except for those on the far end of the spectrum. They still do but not for their intellect. They stand out because they cannot relate to anyone else. They lack people skills.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-31-2009 at 09:03 AM..
Except for things coming to us just a little bit easier.
"How did you know that?" or "How did you figure that out?"
I don't know--I just did. Okay, so you got the answers, and in a way to make the "rest of us" realize that it wasn't random chance--but you can't explain how? I never could explain "how".
Like, in math, if they asked me to SHOW my work--I couldn't. I simply asked, "Isn't that the right answer?" And it was--you can't argue with results.
Perhaps we lack "people skills" because we encountered only one or two classes of people.
1) those who wanted to get close to us to use us for whatever we could get them (like the answers to a test, for example)
or 2) those who shunned us out of some sense of either jealousy or fear--maybe even both.
Last edited by TKramar; 10-31-2009 at 09:14 AM..
Reason: addressed an additional point.
Except for things coming to us just a little bit easier.
"How did you know that?" or "How did you figure that out?"
I don't know--I just did. Okay, so you got the answers, and in a way to make the "rest of us" realize that it wasn't random chance--but you can't explain how? I never could explain "how".
Like, in math, if they asked me to SHOW my work--I couldn't. I simply asked, "Isn't that the right answer?" And it was--you can't argue with results.
Perhaps we lack "people skills" because we encountered only one or two classes of people.
1) those who wanted to get close to us to use us for whatever we could get them (like the answers to a test, for example)
or 2) those who shunned us out of some sense of either jealousy or fear--maybe even both.
I know that because I've asked. Things do seem to require, slightly, less effort with my gifted brothers and my gifted sister, however, a little more effort on our part and we pass them right by. That slight difference doesn't make a difference unless they are willing to put in the effort everyone else is to pass them by.
I had no trouble in college staying at the top of the class in spite of not being one of the ones for whom it came easily. In fact, I was often at an advantage. Having to do more to get the grade gave me more experience. Ditto for on the job. IRL, I've had no difficulty competing with and passing by people who are supposed to be gifted. I really don't see IQ being any kind of determining factor for an adult except in the broadest sense.
Obviously, when comparing someone with an IQ of 70 to someone with an IQ of 170, you'll find some major differences but I don't think you do when comparing someone with an IQ of 125 to someone with an IQ of 135, yet we'd declare only one of them "gifted".
At 10, 10 points on your IQ corresponds to a year ahead of someone else. It doesn't carry that meaning at 25. As adults, it's not our IQ that determines how far we go. You'll find success in pretty much all IQ ranges except the very lowest and you'll find failure everywhere too. Most of us learn to put in the extra effort we need to to stand tall in spite of not being born gifted.
In the end, it's not your IQ that matters. It's what you do. To a large extent, effort can best IQ.
In math, you have to show your work to show you get the logic. You may have gotten the right answer but you were unable to explain how you got it. You missed the major part of the lesson. Math isn't about answers. It's about a thought process to get answers.
I have one student in my physics class who thinks I should accept just answers when I give the class the answers so they can check their own work. Not on my watch. If you can't explain the logic, I don't think you got the lesson. I'm teaching the process as much as I am how to get an answer.
What I meant was adults who perform at higher levels the way gifted children do. Giftedness is relative. By adulthood, you will see people with IQ's of 100 performing at the same level as people with IQ's of 130. Education and experience can count for more than IQ as an adult. The IQ range for my family and my husbands is about 100-140. There is very little difference, based on IQ, in how we perform as adults. As children there was a difference.
Age is considered in an IQ test for a reason. It's relative to age. A child who studies calculus at 12 is gifted but when their peers reach calculus, how far ahead are they now? I'm not gifted but I went farther in college than most gifted people do. I just did it a little later.
Honestly, the only difference I really see in gifted adults is difficulty fitting in. If you're gifted enough to stand out as an adult, you're often emotionally challenged. The rest of us seem to have pretty much normalized over time. If you lined up my seven brothers and sisters, you'd be hard pressed to rank us according to IQ based on things like educational attainment and accomplishment.
For children, IQ matters. A child who has an I of 130 at 10 is three years ahead of their peers and won't fit in in the classroom with their peers. For adults, IQ no longer has the meaning of being ahead. IQ only matters in the broadest sense unless you're talking something extreme. I know people who have IQ's in the 160's and you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart from me and I'm nowhere near that. Now, as children, they were way above me. Not anymore though.
I might agree but I see some discremencies. IN YOUR CASE THOUGH: Gifted individuals recognize the issues while those who are average or below (the deny them constantly because they feel their degrees or time spent on a subject has somehow made them equals) do what they can to try and find a way to make those more intelligent people feel less superior, even going as far as a teacher to berate them in front of students or otherwise put invisible bars of achievment for gifted kids that will move to the teachers liking to make sure that that they feel inferior as a way to make the teacher feel more superior through their abuse of power. All under the ruse that these children need to be forced to face failure at any cost regardless of the quality of a project compared to the peers that they are suppose to be compared with and the standards that are suppose to be the same across the board regardless of their abilities.
In reality there is a difference though it is less noticeable to those with average IQs thanks for the presence of tolerance, compassion, empathy, understanding, (and the lack of arrogance and "better than all" attitude that a very small group gifted adults actually possess) but that does not mean that they are challenged and have like minds to talk to that make them feel like they truly fit in.
FOR EXAMPLE: DH & I have an above average IQs. Most of the things we do in life require that we know how to obtain and maintain relationships with mostly average IQ people. All the friends and acquaintances we have met have taught us one thing....we appear normal and have the ability to converse with people on any level, from teen to 100 years old very well. Teens thing we are "cool," people our age use us to get advice on how to fix their life problems, people 10 years old than us see us as mature for our age, people who are much older than we are see as wise for our age.
But the overall mass of average people thinkwe'ew just like them because I do really well with communicating with them. Then something comes along in converstion that they are really passionate about but they can not put into any real words how they feel...then guess who is giving the words they need. Suddenly, we go from normal and the same to having groupies. I HATE that. DH has it much worse than I. His groupies are from multiple states and other countries who about worship him with, "You're stuff is so cool man!" and call him on a daily basis. During teaching events, the groupies drag people to DH because "This is the guy to talk to. He is the best at explaining it and he's so cool." DH doesn't think hes so cool or that the person who drug them over really has the inability to speak on the subject. Although they are still good friends and he wouldn't change a thing about them, when he comes to a challenge or a road block in his work and needs someone to turn to, he turns to the two or three friends that really are like him he rarely talks to to brainstorming with.
He burns out someday on with these groupie friends who act like he never has a trouble in life and like he always knows the answer when we both know he has a lot of questions that he can not answer that these people would be confused with in a minute of conversation trying to explain it. He gets days where he will be working on something that is making him scratch his head while the whole time on speakerphone, he's got guy after guy calling and going on about how he's the best and going on and on about it. It is very frusterating. What he really needs instead of, "You'll get it man!" and the prep rally crap is someone who will ask, "Have you tried this?" And after a day of this, sometimes all it takes is to come in and talk to me about it, a female with less experience in the subject then the men he's been listening to all day who have actually made similar items (the only really difference is the finishing details and the creative imagination that makes DH's stuff, what the product does is the same.) Then I'll throw out a simple thought off the top of my head and that'll be it. Now if these other men had just dropped that worshipping crap for a couple minutes and just thought about it, he'd have never have to come in and talk to the simpleton on the subject.
Except for things coming to us just a little bit easier.
"How did you know that?" or "How did you figure that out?"
I don't know--I just did. Okay, so you got the answers, and in a way to make the "rest of us" realize that it wasn't random chance--but you can't explain how? I never could explain "how".
Like, in math, if they asked me to SHOW my work--I couldn't. I simply asked, "Isn't that the right answer?" And it was--you can't argue with results.
Perhaps we lack "people skills" because we encountered only one or two classes of people.
1) those who wanted to get close to us to use us for whatever we could get them (like the answers to a test, for example)
or 2) those who shunned us out of some sense of either jealousy or fear--maybe even both.
Ok, so I worked with a boss whom I respected for his people skills. Amazing! The best I had ever seen! I studied them as to learn to be better at what I did, though I would never has his patience I know the answer and just don't get why people can't see it and why they allow stupid things hold them back.
We had a strength finder test from the Gallup corp and my top 5 strengths were:
deliberative---does will with seeing issues that others can not, good decision making skills
analytical---I spent time on the research and proof to prove myself for those who doubted me
restorative---like to fix problems
individualization---recognize the individual strengths of individuals, good at deligating tasks to the right people
responsibility---took ownership of everything, often having too much on my plate
This boss and I had the same conversation of what you just described. I told him: I've got a lot on my plate but I know when and who to deligate to and because I'm responsible and still have that ownership of it, I can follow up and make sure something is followed through on. I analyze somethings too much but on the other hand, when I'm on the go with a handful of things all at once, I arrive at a conclusion without the time to do the analyizing so I like to consult with someone (usually him) who could tell me without having to do it so I can get it done all that much sooner. So while you might see me as second guesssing myself, in reality, I just need to know that I'm not messing something else up that I have not seen because I do not always know why I get to the conclusion that I do, not that I think my answer is wrong or that I'm making a mistake, I just want to make sure I haven't looked over something before moving forward with it.
It is what made me good at what I did, and in fact, everything I decide I'm going to do.
Last edited by flik_becky; 10-31-2009 at 11:35 AM..
Actually, with 20 years in R&D and engineering, my sample is far from small. Most of my friends through school were considered gifted. No I am not gifted. Far from it. I just hang out with a lot of gifted people. At least, formerly gifted people.
Us referred to the rest of us. The non gifted crowd. Many of whom are now indistinguishible from the gifted crowd of the past. In spite of not having a gifted bone in my body, I rose to the level of and worked alongside many who were gifted through the years. I really don't see much difference between them and me.
I would suspect that someone operating from a perspective of high intelligence might see differences you are not capable of seeing. IQ only "doesn't matter for adults" if you have placed yourself in a situation--social, professional, or otherwise-- of it not needing to matter.
Consider, since your frame of reference seems to be best served by the financial, that there are people with multi-million dollar bank accounts. If you're buying a house in a typical suburban neighborhood, say for the sake of argument $250-350K in Sterling Hts. MI or the Tampa Bay area, the milti-billions really don't matter. Anything over the necessary sum is superfluous.
Were I building a 38.000 square foot house in a more chichi neighborhood, that money would matter. But I don't place myself in that situation, because I know I can't keep up. I would suggest that, at the risk of beating a metaphor to death, you don't spend much time in Southampton or Malibu.
Further (I do love a dead horse), like people with ridiculous sums of money, people with superior intellect don't have to show off to the little people. They don't tend to brag-- so you'd probably never know whether Fred has an IQ of 165 or 180 (though if it were 120 he'd probably be all up in your face with it). One thing is likely, though-- you probably won't run into him either in Sweathog Charter School or in Dilbertland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
My experience is that hard work and perseverance matter more than IQ as adults and given time, many people will catch up to the gifted.
I suspect that depends very much upon how you define "matter". I tend not to use bank accounts or real estate as measuring sticks in micturation competitions. My currency tends to be more along the lines of choices-- the latitude to do what's interesting and intellectually stimulating-- than toys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
As time goes on, being the first one in college and out fades as others do what you did and sometimes more.
You seem to be thinking of early entry into college as a goal, rather than an accommodation of a difference. I started college at `17. And again at 28. And 49. It's a means to an end, that's all. No matter when my kids start (or how often), it will be the same. And if one of the younger two decides to do something that doesn't require college, like be a blacksmith or a cartoonist, it won't make them more or less intelligent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
It's not what you have, it's what you do with what you have.
I do love the smell of meaningless aphorisms in the morning!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I just don't think IQ has the meaning as adults it has as kids. For kids, yes it matters because it's a measure of how far ahead you are.
I don't think it matters to the kids, either. It matters to the schools. Where we are, it makes no difference whatever. I adapt schooling to all my child's needs, not just the numbers that call him or her "smarter than the average bear". If you have a need to rank Susie and Johnny and Arabella according to which one's the smart/dumb/athletic/artistic one, and slap labels around, then labeling's important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
For adults, it's really just a number unless you're way at the extremes.
The whole point of the term "gifted" is that you're an extreme. It doesn't mean anybody who can sit in an honors class, even if some school administrations tend to use it that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
No citations to give here. Just look around you. How many gifted adults do you know compared to how many gifted kids you knew in school. For the most part, for all their "gifts" they seem to have blended into the woodwork as other who are not as gifted chose the same career paths and same degrees.
Far more, actually.
Apparently, Ivory, you and I live in very different worlds. I find myself very glad of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Because of my career choices, I've been exposed to more formerly gifted children than most and I don't see them standing out like they once did except for those on the far end of the spectrum. They still do but not for their intellect. They stand out because they cannot relate to anyone else. They lack people skills.
As a schoolteacher (for all of...what, a year and a half?) and in a cubicle? There are many, many brilliant individuals out there who aren't your stereotypical pi-calculating, rarely-dating, badly-dressed squints.
I'd agree that certain career paths tend to attract the socially inept. Actually, there's a running joke in autism circles (ascribed to Temple Grandin originally, I think) that NASA is the biggest sheltered workshop in the country. But then, even engineers who are neither autistic nor former gifted kids are known for their unique social competencies.
As for schoolteachers...I'll take the fifth.
Except for things coming to us just a little bit easier.
"How did you know that?" or "How did you figure that out?"
I don't know--I just did. Okay, so you got the answers, and in a way to make the "rest of us" realize that it wasn't random chance--but you can't explain how? I never could explain "how".
Or, as a coworker once said about my sister, "not everyone can be Kathleen".
I would suspect that someone operating from a perspective of high intelligence might see differences you are not capable of seeing. IQ only "doesn't matter for adults" if you have placed yourself in a situation--social, professional, or otherwise-- of it not needing to matter.
Consider, since your frame of reference seems to be best served by the financial, that there are people with multi-million dollar bank accounts. If you're buying a house in a typical suburban neighborhood, say for the sake of argument $250-350K in Sterling Hts. MI or the Tampa Bay area, the milti-billions really don't matter. Anything over the necessary sum is superfluous.
Were I building a 38.000 square foot house in a more chichi neighborhood, that money would matter. But I don't place myself in that situation, because I know I can't keep up. I would suggest that, at the risk of beating a metaphor to death, you don't spend much time in Southampton or Malibu.
Further (I do love a dead horse), like people with ridiculous sums of money, people with superior intellect don't have to show off to the little people. They don't tend to brag-- so you'd probably never know whether Fred has an IQ of 165 or 180 (though if it were 120 he'd probably be all up in your face with it). One thing is likely, though-- you probably won't run into him either in Sweathog Charter School or in Dilbertland.
I suspect that depends very much upon how you define "matter". I tend not to use bank accounts or real estate as measuring sticks in micturation competitions. My currency tends to be more along the lines of choices-- the latitude to do what's interesting and intellectually stimulating-- than toys.
You seem to be thinking of early entry into college as a goal, rather than an accommodation of a difference. I started college at `17. And again at 28. And 49. It's a means to an end, that's all. No matter when my kids start (or how often), it will be the same. And if one of the younger two decides to do something that doesn't require college, like be a blacksmith or a cartoonist, it won't make them more or less intelligent.
I do love the smell of meaningless aphorisms in the morning!
I don't think it matters to the kids, either. It matters to the schools. Where we are, it makes no difference whatever. I adapt schooling to all my child's needs, not just the numbers that call him or her "smarter than the average bear". If you have a need to rank Susie and Johnny and Arabella according to which one's the smart/dumb/athletic/artistic one, and slap labels around, then labeling's important.
The whole point of the term "gifted" is that you're an extreme. It doesn't mean anybody who can sit in an honors class, even if some school administrations tend to use it that way.
Far more, actually.
Apparently, Ivory, you and I live in very different worlds. I find myself very glad of that.
As a schoolteacher (for all of...what, a year and a half?) and in a cubicle? There are many, many brilliant individuals out there who aren't your stereotypical pi-calculating, rarely-dating, badly-dressed squints.
I'd agree that certain career paths tend to attract the socially inept. Actually, there's a running joke in autism circles (ascribed to Temple Grandin originally, I think) that NASA is the biggest sheltered workshop in the country. But then, even engineers who are neither autistic nor former gifted kids are known for their unique social competencies.
As for schoolteachers...I'll take the fifth.
Apparently, we do live in different worlds. Mine is full of formerly gifted children who have become pretty typical adults. Albeit successful but there are others with far lower IQ's who are just as successful that I count myself among. Lack of IQ didn't stop me from attaining what those who were born with more attained. My point is, IQ isn't the determinant. Hard work and experience, easily, make up for not having that IQ. I have no trouble competing with people who are gifted. I couldn't say that as a child. I can say that as an adult.
As I said before, if you take calculus at 15 and everyone else takes it at 18, what does that matter when you're all 25? Unless you keep on going past where the average person goes, they just catch up with you in time. Some do keep going but so do some people who aren't gifted. I'm one of those. I didn't take calculus at 15 but I aced it when I got to college and every other math class I took in college along with every science course I took in college and I just kept going. I wasn't fast out of the gate, like my gifted friends, but I kept going after they stopped. In the end, it didn't matter that they took college classes at 16 and I didn't. They reached their finish line first but my finish line was farther along and included much deeper material. That I continued to develop well into adulthood mattered more than the IQ I was born with.
While many of the engineers and researchers I know were formerly gifted children, many were not too. The odds may be higher of having such careers if you were but those of us who are not are not excluded by any means. What the gifted attain is also attainable by those of lesser IQ's. The gifted just get there faster, which only matters until others reach the finish line too then time allows the gap to close. By the time we had 10 years in engineering, you couldn't tell who among my classmates had been gifted and who was not. In fact, it was one of the non gifted students went the farthest. He always was willing to work harder than anyone else to get what he wanted though. THAT is what will get you someplace as an adult.
Here's a link to IQ ranges and careers. Take a look at how wide the ranges are for each career. Many who are not gifted, work right along side those who are. It really doesn't make a difference for adults. At least not in the way it does for children. It's a minor contributor at most.
IQ does matter to kids as it's relative to age. A child who is 10 with an IQ of 13 is three years ahead of his same aged peers. At 10 that matters a lot. I deal with this with my 11 year old. She's years ahead both academically and socially (she's that strange mix of all around gifted. There is nothing she isn't ahead in including social skills). Right now is when it does matter. By college it won't matter so much. After college, I don't expect it to matter at all. After college, she'll meet lots of people who went as far as she did from a pretty wide range of IQ's.
Perhaps you might be able to understand another analogy. My dd is gifted, among other things, in music. At 7 when she was composing and competing, she was considered a near prodigy. At 11 she has many more kids at her level so she's not so special anymore. Given time, other kids who stuck with it and worked hard were able to attain what she has. At 7 she was spectacular. At 27 she'll, likely, just be one of many good pianists. In time, the field levels because others have time to catch up to you. How fast you got there doesn't matter nearly as much as where you end up and for most gifted people, all IQ does is get them to the finish line faster where they are, later, joined by many who have lesser IQ's. 10 years out from college, you're hard pressed to look at job performance and decide who was a gifted child and who was not.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-31-2009 at 12:50 PM..
Here's a link to IQ ranges and careers. Take a look at how wide the ranges are for each career. Many who are not gifted, work right along side those who are. It really doesn't make a difference for adults. At least not in the way it does for children. It's a minor contributor at most.
Your sole adult criterion is "career". There are many, many adults who define themselves as far more than what they do to pay the bills.
Perhaps being able to see more than one narrowly define criterion is something your gifted siblings would be better at. Or again, maybe it's the worlds we inhabit. I tend to avoid boxes, and the people who find them comforting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
IQ does matter to kids as it's relative to age. A child who is 10 with an IQ of 13 is three years ahead of his same aged peers.
Rarely across the board, and even then only assuming that he lives in a perfectly normed peer group.
A child with an IQ of 130 (and I won't be tiresome and ask you which testing set you've used in this hypothetical, even though scores will vary somewhat depending upon verbal skills as well as the old standbys of culture and education) may well be (for example) really verbal. She may or may not be mathematically talented, and she may also be physically more or less developed than her age-mates. She may draw detailed scenes with spot-on perspective, or she may draw stick figures with no fingers. She may not have hit developmental milestones at the usual times. (You might very well have, say, a five year old reading Edgar Allen Poe, but still carrying an extra pair of underpants in her lunch box.)
Assuming synchronous development, particularly among the intellectually gifted, is a mistake. And assuming that his peer group is a veritable Pepsi commercial of middle American commonplaceness is an even bigger one.
Last edited by Aconite; 10-31-2009 at 01:01 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
