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I am strictly opposed to people owning guns. There is no need for that whatsoever. We do not need to defend ourselves and people actually are not scared of others here.
I do however quite like shooting. Last time, about 2 years ago, I tried a G36 assault rifle. No, I am not schizophrenic...
I didn't think any E.U. national would pick it, but I just had to include it. Makes the list complete. But I'm not an expert, of course. Maybe there is a country where the laws are (more) lax and the person is satisfied with the way it is. Or, there, maybe, might be someone who thinks, what you consider strict, is lax. I guess that, then, this would be a good option, too.
The thing, though, is this. Here, people love to tout the 2nd amendment, but how many people actually CARRY a gun? And nobody really wants to be seen carrying a gun ( you can still see the outline, for instance ). They are too big to actually carry. Most people, at least those who do have one, just have one at home. And most gun control attempts in the past would not even have touched that.
Which brings me to the question how people would defend themselves, I mean those who voted, if they were attacked on the street, for instance. Although most people here do not carry a gun, the thugs at least know there's a possibility and will often leave you alone then.
Too much Hollywood:>)
Why is a gun too big or outlines can be seen? What do you base your statement that most people just have one at home? Come to Texas:>) Gun control is tight to an extreme, concealed permits include one full day of instruction regarding laws and propper behavior, folks carry open and nobody stares.
Try being active or even competitive in shooting sports in Germany. You get subjected to unannounced checks, smart comments, your kids get questioned - a good reason to immigrate. On the other hand I ordered a rifle by phone and the mailman left it without signature at a neighbor's - so much for control.
Too much Hollywood:>)
Why is a gun too big or outlines can be seen? What do you base your statement that most people just have one at home? Come to Texas:>) Gun control is tight to an extreme, concealed permits include one full day of instruction regarding laws and propper behavior, folks carry open and nobody stares.
Try being active or even competitive in shooting sports in Germany. You get subjected to unannounced checks, smart comments, your kids get questioned - a good reason to immigrate. On the other hand I ordered a rifle by phone and the mailman left it without signature at a neighbor's - so much for control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threestep
Too much Hollywood:>)
Why is a gun too big or outlines can be seen? What do you base your statement that most people just have one at home? Come to Texas:>) Gun control is tight to an extreme, concealed permits include one full day of instruction regarding laws and propper behavior, folks carry open and nobody stares.
Try being active or even competitive in shooting sports in Germany. You get subjected to unannounced checks, smart comments, your kids get questioned - a good reason to immigrate. On the other hand I ordered a rifle by phone and the mailman left it without signature at a neighbor's - so much for control.
I said "those who have one". This dosen't imply they only have one gun.
Nobody wants to walk through a mall or public areas when you can clearly see the outline of the gun, the holster, or whatever. To say the least, that would be pretty awkward, and I've actually never seen this. You want to completely conceal it if you do that. I am Texan, and I do live in Texas. I think you're German. So I don't know why you'd even say "come to Texas" in the first place. I'm not European and/or live in the E.U.
I don't think you can order a gun through the mail in Germany. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you can't, since the laws are very strict and you'd have to go in person if you can even legally buy one.
I said "those who have one". This dosen't imply they only have one gun.
Nobody wants to walk through a mall or public areas when you can clearly see the outline of the gun, the holster, or whatever. To say the least, that would be pretty awkward, and I've actually never seen this. You want to completely conceal it if you do that. I am Texan, and I do live in Texas. I think you're German. So I don't know why you'd even say "come to Texas" in the first place. I'm not European and/or live in the E.U.
I don't think you can order a gun through the mail in Germany. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you can't, since the laws are very strict and you'd have to go in person if you can even legally buy one.
Come to DFW and go to WallMart:>) My first trip to Kroger was interesting - I was bare of ... no boots, hat, holster. Now the morning check list runs - Ipad, phone, lunch, gun, coffee.
No reason to call me a liar. The whole neighborhood thought it was funny.
Are you actually saying that because the UK / Australia has stricter gun control laws it means that they are less 'free' societies!!!!!! un-believable!!!!!
Yes, I'm actually saying that stricter gun laws that infringe on one's right to security of person makes a society-at-large less free. WOW!!!
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Originally Posted by easthome
You can own a gun in the UK if you have a licence and a good reason for owning one - why on earth would you want one otherwise!!!!!!
While I do generally see firearm licensing as an acceptable means of regulation, I don't view such narrow justifications (or "good reasons") for firearm ownership as adequate protection of one's right to bear arms.
I do keep in mind, however, that Brits and Australians don't enjoy constitutional protections regarding firearm ownership the way Americans do, and it doesn't seem to me that either society generally wants to. Brits and Aussies have long deluded themselves into believing that their societies have attained the highest levels of civility simply because of their massively stringent controls on firearms--far be it from me or anyone else to change your minds.
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Originally Posted by easthome
You are able to walk the streets, go to the shopping centre or go to college in the UK without having a lunatic shooting at you - to me that makes the society more 'free' than a country that is continually having maniacs shooting college kids just because they want the notoriaty!!
As I mentioned in my previous comments, I, an American living in the U.S., have throughout my entire life lived in American neighborhoods, attended an American high shcool, an American college and walked the streets day and night without ever having encountered a gun-wielding lunatic. Not once ever. I'm not afraid of guns or anybody who owns one--I've never had a reason to be, and it isn't at all far-fetched for me to assume that many, if not most, Americans share my experience.
And let me ask you this:
With the UK being the most thuggish, crime-ridden country in the whole of Europe (the Daily Mail has reported that UK violent crime surpassed even that of the U.S. as recently as 2009), is it really a safe assumption that a Brit walking down the street at night is generally any safer on a dark London street than an American is in NYC on any given day? Is a Brit seriously less likely to be mugged or physically assaulted on their way home from a shopping center or raped on their way home from a pub?
It doesn't look like it, easthome. Sorry.
But hey, at least you've gotten rid of guns!
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Originally Posted by italianuser
The gun massacres that happen every week in the USA are nothing to be ashamed of
There are not now, nor have there ever been, gun massacres occurring in the U.S. on a recurring daily, weekly, monthly, etc. basis. The average American is more likely to die via drowning than they are by gunshot. Your hyperbole is absurd.
Contrary to what European societies love to believe about American life and the "dangerous gun culture" that we embrace, the vast majority of us have no reason to fear guns, regardless of random tragedies. The fact that a murderer can get a gun is not the problem--the problem is that they'remurderers.
I do keep in mind, however, that Brits and Australians don't enjoy constitutional protections regarding firearm ownership the way Americans do, and it doesn't seem to me that either society generally wants to. Brits and Aussies have long deluded themselves into believing that their societies have attained the highest levels of civility simply because of their massively stringent controls on firearms--far be it from me or anyone else to change your minds.
They have deluded themselves? Really?
Are you telling me that Alabama, Mississippi, Nevada, South Carolina, Florida are more civilized than Australia? Er, I think that you are the delusional one in fact...
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Originally Posted by Montguy
With the UK being the most thuggish, crime-ridden country in the whole of Europe (the Daily Mail has reported that UK violent crime surpassed even that of the U.S. as recently as 2009), is it really a safe assumption that a Brit walking down the street at night is generally any safer on a dark London street than an American is in NYC on any given day? Is a Brit seriously less likely to be mugged or physically assaulted on their way home from a shopping center or raped on their way home from a pub?
Are you sure about it? You don't know what you're talking about it: I suggest you to stop reading NRA's comic books...
First of all, let me remind you that NYC has strict gun laws and a (declining) murder rate that's just a fraction of Miami/Saint Louis/New Orleans/Memphis/Jackson/Philadelphia's ones: so the analogy doesn't work... you're comparing London with one of the few safe USA cities.
Also, let me remind you that NYC has strict gun laws and a (declining) murder rate that's just a fraction of Miami/Saint Louis/New Orleans/Memphis/Jackson/Philadelphia's ones: so the analogy doesn't work... you're comparing London with one of the few safe USA cities.
NYC's murder rate http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...36088&page=328
Why don't you compare London public safety to Philadelphia, New Orleans and Miami?
Last but not least, compare UK and Australia's murder rates with Southern states' ones.
There are not now, nor have there ever been, gun massacres occurring in the U.S. on a recurring daily, weekly, monthly, etc. basis. The average American is more likely to die via drowning than they are by gunshot. Your hyperbole is absurd.
Oh yes, we can't certainly say that such massacres are by far more frequent in the USA rather in Europe, Canada, Japan, South Korea and Australia
But I suppose they are the price to pay to be "free"... I felt so free when I lived in Dallas: road rage shootings are rare events in Texas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montguy
Contrary to what European societies love to believe about American life and the "dangerous gun culture" that we embrace, the vast majority of us have no reason to fear guns, regardless of random tragedies. The fact that a murderer can get a gun is not the problem--the problem is that they'remurderers.
The problem is the easy availability of guns: there are crazy people everywhere, unfortunately in large parts of the USA they can get powerful weapons and we see the results.
Last edited by italianuser; 08-17-2012 at 11:51 PM..
With the UK being the most thuggish, crime-ridden country in the whole of Europe (the Daily Mail has reported that UK violent crime surpassed even that of the U.S. as recently as 2009), is it really a safe assumption that a Brit walking down the street at night is generally any safer on a dark London street than an American is in NYC on any given day? Is a Brit seriously less likely to be mugged or physically assaulted on their way home from a shopping center or raped on their way home from a pub?
Oh oh oh! I can answer that! I was walking in a more quiet part of England and was drive-by assaulted one night when a couple of stupid kids threw a half-filled plastic bottle at my head. Ouch. ****ers drove off before I can get their license plate numbers and since I don't know anything about European car models...lost cause to call the police who won't give a damn anyway.
But, hey what do I know? I'm just an uncivilized American that has to dance to my bullet hole riddled car while dodging automatic gunfire and mass murdering lunatics everywhere I go. Oh hold on, let me get my rocket launcher ready in case I have to blow up some weirdo who looked at me funny I wish I was one of those civilized Europeans who think they know everything because they and their countrymen don't own firearms!
They have deluded themselves? Really?
Are you telling me that Alabama, Mississippi, Nevada, South Carolina, Florida are more civilized than Australia?
Well, lets see here: Alabama, Mississippi, Nevada, South Carolina and Florida aren't, according to any statistical data that you've referenced, individually or collectively any more or less civilized than Australia, and, in fact, not a single one of these states can even tout gun homicide (or ANY homicide) as being among their leading causes of death (oh yeah, and not a single one of these states by themselves or in combination can compete with overall violent crime in the UK or Australia). Weird...
Interestingly, though, it's never actually been my contention that Australia is uncivilized; rather, it has been my contention that societies with stringent gun control measures aren't more civilized in terms of overall statistical violent crime (not JUST homicides) than ones that are less stringent.
Lets focus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by italianuser
Are you sure about it? You don't know what you're talking about it: I suggest you to stop reading NRA's comic books...
The only person I see around here who doesn't know what they're talking about goes by the name italianuser--this person can be found ignorantly snarking off on the Europe forums section.
I've never sought to dispute U.S. homicide statistics; on the contrary, I've merely attempted to inform anti-gun sycophants like you that Americans aren't living in fear of being shot and have no statistical reason to be (homicide isn't even a leading cause of death nationally). It's that simple, and it's not something that some know-nothing from mainland Europe (not naming any names, of course) could possibly have any personal experience with or knowledge of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by italianuser
Also, compare UK and Australia's murder rates with Southern states' ones.
Sure thing--you just be sure to compare UK and Australia overall violent crime rates with those of the U.S. southern region, along with the country's national average.
In order for my argument(s) to fail, you're required to do two fundamental things:
1. Make the case that the average American is someone who lives in imminent, constant danger of death by gunfire.
2. Explain why a country can have a higher overall violent crime rate and still be considered more civilized than the country with a lower overall violent crime rate.
Just for starters, okay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by italianuser
Oh yes, we can't certainly say that such massacres are by far more frequent in the USA rather in Europe, Canada, Japan, South Korea and Australia
Meaningless. Guns are widely available in many European countries and, of course, in Canada.
However, I don't have the sociological background to make any real assumptions about why countries like Switzerland, Germany, Norway, France, Canada etc., don't have similar histories of firearm massacres, but hey, guess what? Neither do you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by italianuser
But I suppose they are the price to pay to be "free"... oh yes, I felt so free when I used to live in Dallas where road rage shootings are so rare
You know what, before we even focus on guns, I think it's time that Americans relinquish all of their freedoms--their safety is much, much more important than the freedom to cross the street, smoke, drive, swim, hike, eat McDonald's, drink Soda, take lawfully prescribed medications, etc. Only once there are NO unnatural causes of death will we finally be free!!!
And I'll be the first to call your bluff about having ever even been to the U.S., let alone having ever lived in Dallas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by italianuser
The problem is the easy availability of guns: there are crazy people everywhere, unfortunately in large parts of the USA they can get powerful weapons and we see the result.
Firearm availiability doesn't murder anyone--stop with your knee-jerk small-mindedness and, better yet, instead of worrying about firearms in the U.S., why don't you worry about that sinking ship called Italy?
1. Make the case that the average American is someone who lives in imminent, constant danger of death by gunfire.
2. Explain why a country can have a higher overall violent crime rate and still be considered more civilized than the country with a lower overall violent crime rate.
Do you really think that I dislike Texas and red states due to the gun culture?
I strongly dislike such places due to SEVERAL factors: even if there wasn't a gun culture, I would still think that they overall "offer" a bad quality of life.
And, no, I'm not naive and I don't think that the majority of americans live in fear and in imminent, constant danger of death by gunfire: but I am certainly surprised by the indifference and apathy to violence... as far as my experience is concerned, it seems to me that too many americans see such pointless acts of violence as the price to pay to be "free": they have accepted gun massacres almost as a fact of life.
Sorry, I couldn't stand living surrounded by such mentality.
Last edited by italianuser; 08-18-2012 at 05:11 AM..
The fact that Montguy has quoted the Daily Mail, the gutter of all tabloids in the UK, says to me that he has very little idea what he's talking about.
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I wish I was one of those civilized Europeans who think they know everything because they and their countrymen don't own firearms!
