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She certainly is less extreme than her father, that's the whole strategy, but anyone who wants to go back to the old currency has a bad idea. If France leaves the euro like she wants to, it will be a big big mess for everyone. Also, about her gay views, sure she has gay friends, but she was still against gay marriage, so in case she was elected they would still be second class citizens, much more so than now. Also, many people who are much more extreme than her would be delighted and start making a lot of mess in this country, i.e. racist attacks, etc.
Her view on secularism is pretty backward as well, for instance the suppression of pork-free meals at school (which was also expressed by politicians from more central parties as well)
Also, LOL @ François Hollande being extreme. He's like the epitome of moderation. Bernie Sanders is more to the left.
For politicians, everything is a strategy. So let's not say it is a strategy for Marine le Pen to be less radical. Do you think Obama's "change" and Clinton's "women's LGBT rights" are not strategies?
Anyone who wants to go back the old currency has a bad idea -- that's subject to discussion. Euro is good on certain aspects and bad on others. By adopting the euro, France loses the flexibility to adjust its monetary supply - something government usually find useful. By saying abandoning euro is a bad idea, that's equivalent of saying any country that issues just its own current and not form a monetary union is being wrong, really? Should Canada form a monetary union with the US? I don't think so. Greece's malaise largely lies in the fact that joined the euro zone. I am pro-EU, but to say bluntly quitting EU/Eu zone is bad, I can't agree with. And I am not sure it will be a big mess for "everyone".
Speaking of gay marriage, she doesn't oppose it and refused to participate anti-gay events.You can say that's for winning votes, but don't forget only a few years ago Hilary Clinton was against gay marriage as well, now all she speaks about is LGBT rights. The tides turned and she softens her position. Why can't Le Pen do the same? They are politicians. Do you really think Hilary Clinton gives a rat's a$$ about LGBT or latino rights deep inside?
Gay people will always be "second class" citizen to some extent, because prejudice will always be present, it is just a matter of degree. You can't find a country where there is no gay discrimination, and there is no country or city where 100% gay are openly gay, is there? I hope it will change though. We should see Le Pen is progressing, considerately, and you can't accuse her of doing this just for vote.
This fork free meal thing is laughable. It shouldn't be escalated to a matter of religion. For christ's sake, if you don't eat pork, nobody forces you too. You bring your own meal. Schools are not supposed to satisfy each and every particular demand from individuals. For example, if I don't eat cheese (I don't digest it well), should I demand a cheese free meal? If I hate the taste of beef, should I be entitled to a beef free meal? it is not about depriving your freedom of religion. It is about the fact that France is secular and you can't expect the system to modify itself just because you have a certain religion. I don't even think they should provide vegetarian only options. If you have a need that is different from everyone else, then prepare your own meal instead of asking the school to have it specifically for you. If it is for health issues such as allergy I can understand, but not this nonsense. It is not about disrespect your religion, it is about you are NOT special and should be treated so. Practice your religion in your own time, your own space.
About Holland, it was he proposes that 75% rich tax, wasn't it? Try that in the US. My point is extreme left/right are all relative. It is hardly fair to call FN "extreme right" just because they oppose immigration.
Anti-immigration stances are unrealistic. Immigration exists, no matter what. The more it gets banned, the more illegal it will become, the more migrants will be exploited and the more people will complain about immigration.
That's wrong. There far more countries that have no or very few immigrants than those who do accept immigrants with open arms. To say countries have to accept immigrants and banning it is somehow wrong, that's just misleading. Japan seems doing just fine with close to 100% Japanese in their country.
This multi-culture thing is great, but let's not pretend for a second that it is the only great option. A country doesn't have to multi-cultural in order to be great.
For politicians, everything is a strategy. So let's not say it is a strategy for Marine le Pen to be less radical. Do you think Obama's "change" and Clinton's "women's LGBT rights" are not strategies?
Anyone who wants to go back the old currency has a bad idea -- that's subject to discussion. Euro is good on certain aspects and bad on others. By adopting the euro, France loses the flexibility to adjust its monetary supply - something government usually find useful. By saying abandoning euro is a bad idea, that's equivalent of saying any country that issues just its own current and not form a monetary union is being wrong, really? Should Canada form a monetary union with the US? I don't think so. Greece's malaise largely lies in the fact that joined the euro zone. I am pro-EU, but to say bluntly quitting EU/Eu zone is bad, I can't agree with. And I am not sure it will be a big mess for "everyone".
Speaking of gay marriage, she doesn't oppose it and refused to participate anti-gay events.You can say that's for winning votes, but don't forget only a few years ago Hilary Clinton was against gay marriage as well, now all she speaks about is LGBT rights. The tides turned and she softens her position. Why can't Le Pen do the same? They are politicians. Do you really think Hilary Clinton gives a rat's a$$ about LGBT or latino rights deep inside?
Gay people will always be "second class" citizen to some extent, because prejudice will always be present, it is just a matter of degree. You can't find a country where there is no gay discrimination, and there is no country or city where 100% gay are openly gay, is there? I hope it will change though. We should see Le Pen is progressing, considerately, and you can't accuse her of doing this just for vote.
This fork free meal thing is laughable. It shouldn't be escalated to a matter of religion. For christ's sake, if you don't eat pork, nobody forces you too. You bring your own meal. Schools are not supposed to satisfy each and every particular demand from individuals. For example, if I don't eat cheese (I don't digest it well), should I demand a cheese free meal? If I hate the taste of beef, should I be entitled to a beef free meal? it is not about depriving your freedom of religion. It is about the fact that France is secular and you can't expect the system to modify itself just because you have a certain religion. I don't even think they should provide vegetarian only options. If you have a need that is different from everyone else, then prepare your own meal instead of asking the school to have it specifically for you. If it is for health issues such as allergy I can understand, but not this nonsense. It is not about disrespect your religion, it is about you are NOT special and should be treated so. Practice your religion in your own time, your own space.
About Holland, it was he proposes that 75% rich tax, wasn't it? Try that in the US. My point is extreme left/right are all relative. It is hardly fair to call FN "extreme right" just because they oppose immigration.
I understand that everyone has strategies to win votes, in her case it was certainly successful. I don't blame anyone for that, but obviously it is difficult to discern what is sincere and what is not. As someone who is for immigration and from a different background, I can't help being wary of what she has to propose. Exposing yourself with gay people when otherwise the general ideas of your political party have always been extremely traditionalists and when your election base is not certainly very progressive or liberal can be perceived as fake / demagogue. Sure, H. Clinton certainly had similar sudden changes as well, this kind of behaviour is not exclusive to far right parties.
My point is, many people in France are nationalists, xenophobes, racists, homophobes, machists, etc. you name it. Once someone who represents you is in power, it becomes difficult to stop these people to express publicly their ideas in violent ways. See what is happening right now in the US for reference.
About the Pork Free meal, what is laughable is that extreme secularists give so much importance about such a thing. In France schools propose meals (which are not free actually, families pay for it) and in better schools there are often two options, while in some others there is only one. Stressing the fact that kids / teenagers should eat pork is kinda like forbidding them to stay at school for lunch, providing they are muslims (or vegetarians for that matter). What happens is that when forcing people to adopt a clearly non-muslim type of meal, these kids do not spend that social time with their peers anymore and end up being "weird" and religion becomes all the more central, as if schools wanted to pointfinger them.
If schools have different meal options (which is not very complicated on an organizational level), then the difference disappears because the kids end up having their own special meal, just like kids with an intolerance. This debate has been extremely tense, and it showed the worst of secular extremists (some of them being actually pretty left wing).
I don't even like most French cheese and I don't really drink red wine either. So, Am I a failure of a French citizen as well ? Have we dug that low already or should we go deeper ? Seriously, putting aside people because they eat differently is really horrible, and nobody blames asian kids because they prefer rice over bread. If that isn't disguided racism, I don't know what is.
I still think FN is pretty extreme right, but on some levels Trump is (although I think is sincerity is kinda low on most subjects). Mike Pence is much scarier actually I admit.
About the 75% Tax, Holland never applied it of course. I wonder why 5 years later people keep on talking about that.
That's wrong. There far more countries that have no or very few immigrants than those who do accept immigrants with open arms. To say countries have to accept immigrants and banning it is somehow wrong, that's just misleading. Japan seems doing just fine with close to 100% Japanese in their country.
This multi-culture thing is great, but let's not pretend for a second that it is the only great option. A country doesn't have to multi-cultural in order to be great.
Except there is a war at our doors and people are dying. People will keep on coming because they have no better options. It's not like they will stop coming if a law is passed to say "guys, sorry we're full". Do you guys really believe that ? Illegal immigration is succesful because people make a profit out of it and nobody decides to control it together like Europe should.
Japan is an Island with a very difficult language and much worse life conditions. and It is also extremely far and difficult to reach for someone who lives in Syria or Erithrea. Why would they even try ?
Except there is a war at our doors and people are dying. People will keep on coming because they have no better options. It's not like they will stop coming if a law is passed to say "guys, sorry we're full". Do you guys really believe that ? Illegal immigration is successful because people make a profit out of it and nobody decides to control it together like Europe should.
Japan is an Island with a very difficult language and much worse life conditions. and It is also extremely far and difficult to reach for someone who lives in Syria or Erithrea. Why would they even try ?
Also, Immigration in Europe is nothing new.
I was not talking about refugees. I always support helping and accommodating refugees. On the Canadian forum, I am one of those strongest supporter of Trudeau for accepting large numbers of them. But even that should be in a controlled manner.
I was talking about immigrants here, whether from a policy perspective a country can call for a stop of immigration without being called "racist".
Japan doesn't have "much worse life conditions"... I don't know why you came to that conclusion. Japan's per capita GDP or HDI are both comparable to those of France, so the living standards are similar in both countries. Have you been to Japan? They enjoy everything French people do. Do Europeans know anything about Asia? Heck, even coastal China is catching up with living standard in France, believe it or not. Shanghai surpassed the living standard of Portugal 10 years ago and is probably at par with Spain or Italy now (it has 25m people). My brother has two cars, including a SUV, two large apartments (100sm/140sq m) both far more expensive than any French city other than Paris (probably close to Paris price too), and he is just a middle class. Japan has much worse living conditions? that's just ridiculous.
Japan may be far from Syria, but it is not so far from many equally poor and over war torn countries in Asia. Language is hardly a reason... Why do you think French is easier than Japanese? That's a typical Western point of view and not everyone is western and speaks English.
Last edited by botticelli; 11-15-2016 at 07:13 AM..
About the Pork Free meal, what is laughable is that extreme secularists give so much importance about such a thing. In France schools propose meals (which are not free actually, families pay for it) and in better schools there are often two options, while in some others there is only one. Stressing the fact that kids / teenagers should eat pork is kinda like forbidding them to stay at school for lunch, providing they are muslims (or vegetarians for that matter). What happens is that when forcing people to adopt a clearly non-muslim type of meal, these kids do not spend that social time with their peers anymore and end up being "weird" and religion becomes all the more central, as if schools wanted to pointfinger them.
If schools have different meal options (which is not very complicated on an organizational level), then the difference disappears because the kids end up having their own special meal, just like kids with an intolerance. This debate has been extremely tense, and it showed the worst of secular extremists (some of them being actually pretty left wing).
I don't even like most French cheese and I don't really drink red wine either. So, Am I a failure of a French citizen as well ? Have we dug that low already or should we go deeper ? Seriously, putting aside people because they eat differently is really horrible, and nobody blames asian kids because they prefer rice over bread. If that isn't disguided racism, I don't know what is.
I still think FN is pretty extreme right, but on some levels Trump is (although I think is sincerity is kinda low on most subjects). Mike Pence is much scarier actually I admit.
About the 75% Tax, Holland never applied it of course. I wonder why 5 years later people keep on talking about that.
Isn't it a bit hypocritical here? You don't want to be considered "different" or "weird" but nevertheless choose to stick to the lifestyle or attire that IS different and weird. Those mothers who are so concerned about their children being mocked, why not stop forbidding their children from eating pork at school in the first place? It is not like the kids choose to not eat pork, it is the parents who demand that they never do, isn't it? So it is the parents who make it difficult for their kids to be just a regular French kid, not the state. Did the children willingly abandon the diet for pork because they were born that way? No, the parents took the freedom from them. And the state is supposed to support and reinforce this?
Why should the school arrange different meal option? It doesn't precisely because it treats everyone equally. And that's the kind of secularism I like about France (yes, I am one of the those liberal who think that way). As I said, everyone has different diet preference, for whatever reason, and it is not the school's job to please everyone because you don't eat and that. In that aspect, one choose to isolate himself, so don't play the victim of discrimination here. Not eating pork is not something you are born with, it is something that is forced upon under the disguise of "freedom of religion" - exactly the same way as Burqa, which I think SHOULD be banned in public occasions.
You think FN is "extreme right" because they were before, and you just don't believe they are changing. They are extreme right because you decided that they are, not because they are doing anything that is extreme right.
The 75% was never applied but it had repercussions. The fact some French celebrities gave up French citizenship made international news. Why people talk about it? Trump didn't built the Mexican wall either, isn't everyone talking about it? He is not going to ban Muslims from entering the US, but people talk about it now and will talk about it in the future as if it were an evidence of "racism". You can't have it both ways.
I was not talking about refugees. I always support helping and accommodating refugees. On the Canadian forum, I am one of those strongest supporter of Trudeau for accepting large numbers of them. But even that should be in a controlled manner.
I was talking about immigrants here, whether from a policy perspective a country can call for a stop of immigration without being called "racist".
Japan doesn't have "much worse life conditions"... I don't know why you came to that conclusion. Japan's per capita GDP or HDI are both comparable to those of France, so the living standards are similar in both countries. Japan may be far from Syria, but it is not so far from many equally poor and over war torn countries in Asia. Language is hardly a reason... Why do you think French is easier than Japanese? That's a typical Western point of view and not everyone is western and speaks English.
Japan is in a dire need of immigrants, because the population is shrinking. And yes, Japan is a very xenophobic - if not racist - country which shouldn't be an example to anyone.
The Japanese language is widely considered as one of the hardest ones to learn in the world. French is extremely easy in comparison. Also, much of the immigrants to France already know French or have had some exposure of the French language.
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Marine Le Pen might have made a good job polishing FN's image, but she's still a wolf in sheep's clothing. The real deal is not her, but who comes behind her. The roots of the FN are in fascist, racist and anti-semitistic movements, and many of these fascists are still in the party.
FN opposes the EU and NATO as a whole (which is a bad thing for the rest of Europe), opposes free trade, supports the death penalty, views Putin as "the defender of Christian heritage of Europe", tougher punishment for criminals and is clearly authoritarian in all issues. These are mainstream European far-right stances.
Le Pen in power would mean bad things for an already fractioned, aching and boiling Europe.
What's the mood in a place like France over immigration? Do people want a total ban on immigration, less immigration with better vetting, more immigration, etc?
Most people, just like in the US and the UK want less or no immigration at all. What most people don't know (and what the FN doesn't tell to the French) is that France receives less immigrants per year than its neighbourhing countries. UK, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium received more immigrants (proportionally) than France did. Even Italy and Spain which are in crisis received more immigrants than France.
Honestly, Le Pen would be a disaster for French society and economy as her isolationist policy is insane.
No I don't but studies show that most people want to reduce immigration.
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