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Somewhat, I dont claim to be a nutritional expert but im more pointing a finger at the fact that you said your "muscle will dissapear" from supplementing with protein. Its like you think they will magically evaporate from supplementing with whey when whey probably has one of the best amino acid profiles(as far as muscle building goes) of all proteins.
Of course there is no way of really telling who is doing what without someone actually admitting it since it's rightly considered taboo behavior. So I never even think about it and never judge dudes that might be bigger than me (although there are tell tale signs, at the gym I concentrate on myself). But main point is that if steroids were to become accepted within the regular gym confines, a lot more people would do it and those of who choose to remain clean would be lumped in with the juicers out there. I wouldn't want to be associated with this crowd. An example of this is the MLB. Many players were accused and found to be juicing. Among those were plenty of would be Hall of Fame players. But the effects of the steroid era even affected players who were not juicing as they have to face the million dollar question of whether or not they've ever juiced. That's not particularly fair, but MLB did it to itself when ballclubs and players made it a social norm.
There is a HUGE difference here.. MLB players are CHEATING by using steroids. Of course people wouldn't want to be lumped into that category. They are taking a top level, high paying, world class sport and blatantly breaking the rules. It's like using a corked bat.
As for "associating" with the "juicing" crowd, what exactly does that mean? People who take steroids aren't any certain type of person, unless you think everyone that takes steroids is a "jersey shore bro" there are TONS of fitness models, etc. who take them, and are normal people like everyone else the rest of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florida2014
What, exactly, are you claiming I'm "uninformed" about? I simply said all things being equal I have much more respect for the clean physique than I do the drugged up one. Would you not agree it's more difficult to obtain that physique being drug-free?
For steroids to be effective you have to put in more work??? Steroids increase testosterone, reduce body fat and will get you stronger all things being equal, hence the results (bigger muscles, leaner physique). You really think if your diet stays the same and you do the same exact workouts day after day that once you start taking steroids you won't see results unless you workout harder? lol....Now it's you who sounds uninformed.
Obtain WHAT physique? Steroids push a person past a physique that any person can obtain naturally. Everyone has a genetic limit.
Non-steroid users can not obtain the same physique as steroid users. So you can't say that a person obtaining a 190lb physique naturally is any more difficult than the same person obtaining a 230lb physique on steroids. They could likely put in the same amount of effort, albeit the 230lb person would likely have to eat more, "just" steroids will typically not add that much without more food.
And yes, steroids increase testosterone, reduce body fat, and get you stronger. However, not NEARLY as much as if you lift far more sets, and eat far more.
For example, say a 190lb guy takes steroids and changes nothing. Same workout, same diet, etc. After probably a couple years and a few hard cycles, he could probably be at around 205-210lbs. At that point he could probably never get any bigger without changing his workouts or diets.
Now, take that 190lb guy, same steroids, but give him 1.5x the amount of protein, fat, and carbs that he had before, and take him from lifting say 4 days a week and 12 sets per muscle group, to 6 days a week and 16 sets per muscle group, and over several years he could probably hit 230 or maybe even 240. But to get there, he will have to lift more and eat more.
A natural guy doesn't have that option. He can't lift as much as the guy on steroids because his body won't recover as fast and it can't handle as many sets. Also, if he were to eat the 1.5x as much, he would just get fatter if he's already at his genetic limit at 190lbs.
Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes, steroids give an advantage even with nothing else changed. But the HUGE guys you see, at the gym or on the stage, they put in FAR more work in the gym and diet than anyone could naturally, simply because the steroids allow them to do such. Their body can process 500 grams of protein instead of 300 grams. They can turn 600 grams of carbs into muscle instead of 400 grams..
I am an ectomorph to the extreme. 3 years ago I was 170lbs. Now I'm about 215 with a bit less BF. I used to be around 185-190 but took time off and lost weight. Because my metabolism is so high, I had to eat a SICK amount of food to get to where I'm at now. Picture eating every meal until you are stuffed full, and then eating 50% more, and doing that 6x a day, and never even being hungry when you sit down. It seriously sucks and is hard but it comes with my thin bodytype. If I were to take steroids, it would be WAY harder to eat even more food, and unless you have been in my shoes and have ate like I have for years and years, measuring all your carbs, proteins, etc. etc. you can't truly understand the difficulty of it. 100x harder than the exercise part.
Somewhat, I don't claim to be a nutritional expert but im more pointing a finger at the fact that you said your "muscle will dissapear" from supplementing with protein. Its like you think they will magically evaporate from supplementing with whey when whey probably has one of the best amino acid profiles(as far as muscle building goes) of all proteins.
No, the body will slowly revert back without the extra source. I had a friend who used protein powder for 3 years and then he decided to stop taking it (still maintaining his workout schedule) and he lost a lot of muscle mass.
Bodybuilding vs strength training vs endurance training vs other types etc. I would edit the first part of the OP quote out to include the preferred activity and include the rest.
A colleague is a long time Ironman competitor. Thin as a rail with no visible muscle but I would not want to him as an adversary in one of those 26+mile meets. Dedication,smart training and results earn respect no matter what endeavor.
100% of every single bodybuilder that has stepped on the stage for the olympia the last 20 years has been on steroids.
Does that take away from their hard work and dedication? No
They are competing with the same compounds and substances as every other person that steps onto that stage.
Taking steroids takes nothing away from top level bodybuilders work ethics or dedication, it only emphasizes their results. Bodybuilders train as hard if not harder than any other top level athletes, and their diet is probably more strict than any athlete of any other sport.
I agree that it doesn't take away from their hard work and dedication. At the same time, it sounds as if you are implying that because they all take da roids, that puts them on an equal playing field. So I'm just clarifying that there is an art and science to it, rather than someone sticking a needle in their butt.
Armstrong is a good case in point. He was a mediocre top level pro before the PED's. But after perfecting the specific ones that affect his performance the most, combined with the specific diet that aid the PED's absorption, the frequency of administration, etc., he became superhuman. And even though others were doing the same things, had similar consulting to the same staff of doctors, Armstrong still came out way ahead...because his physiology just responded better. Mediocre top level pro athlete (which is amazingly impressive in itself), but top PED receptivity.
There is a HUGE difference here.. MLB players are CHEATING by using steroids. Of course people wouldn't want to be lumped into that category. They are taking a top level, high paying, world class sport and blatantly breaking the rules. It's like using a corked bat.
As for "associating" with the "juicing" crowd, what exactly does that mean? People who take steroids aren't any certain type of person, unless you think everyone that takes steroids is a "jersey shore bro" there are TONS of fitness models, etc. who take them, and are normal people like everyone else the rest of the time.
Obtain WHAT physique? Steroids push a person past a physique that any person can obtain naturally. Everyone has a genetic limit.
Non-steroid users can not obtain the same physique as steroid users. So you can't say that a person obtaining a 190lb physique naturally is any more difficult than the same person obtaining a 230lb physique on steroids. They could likely put in the same amount of effort, albeit the 230lb person would likely have to eat more, "just" steroids will typically not add that much without more food.
And yes, steroids increase testosterone, reduce body fat, and get you stronger. However, not NEARLY as much as if you lift far more sets, and eat far more.
For example, say a 190lb guy takes steroids and changes nothing. Same workout, same diet, etc. After probably a couple years and a few hard cycles, he could probably be at around 205-210lbs. At that point he could probably never get any bigger without changing his workouts or diets.
Now, take that 190lb guy, same steroids, but give him 1.5x the amount of protein, fat, and carbs that he had before, and take him from lifting say 4 days a week and 12 sets per muscle group, to 6 days a week and 16 sets per muscle group, and over several years he could probably hit 230 or maybe even 240. But to get there, he will have to lift more and eat more.
A natural guy doesn't have that option. He can't lift as much as the guy on steroids because his body won't recover as fast and it can't handle as many sets. Also, if he were to eat the 1.5x as much, he would just get fatter if he's already at his genetic limit at 190lbs.
Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes, steroids give an advantage even with nothing else changed. But the HUGE guys you see, at the gym or on the stage, they put in FAR more work in the gym and diet than anyone could naturally, simply because the steroids allow them to do such. Their body can process 500 grams of protein instead of 300 grams. They can turn 600 grams of carbs into muscle instead of 400 grams..
I am an ectomorph to the extreme. 3 years ago I was 170lbs. Now I'm about 215 with a bit less BF. I used to be around 185-190 but took time off and lost weight. Because my metabolism is so high, I had to eat a SICK amount of food to get to where I'm at now. Picture eating every meal until you are stuffed full, and then eating 50% more, and doing that 6x a day, and never even being hungry when you sit down. It seriously sucks and is hard but it comes with my thin bodytype. If I were to take steroids, it would be WAY harder to eat even more food, and unless you have been in my shoes and have ate like I have for years and years, measuring all your carbs, proteins, etc. etc. you can't truly understand the difficulty of it. 100x harder than the exercise part.
I'm pretty much tapping out as well after...
I don't think you understood my MLB analogy as I was trying to apply it to normal life (outside of professional athletics). I'll leave that one at that as I don't feel like bouncing this argument back and forth. You seem pretty set on the steroids idea and you want to justify your steroid use, that's fine by me. It's your body, your balls, not mine. You're not changing anyone's opinions on steroid use among the average lifter.
And don't try to differentiate yourself among others. I too have a ridiculously high metabolism and was pretty skinny before weightlifting. It took me quite some time of experimenting with my diet, meals, before I got where I am now. True lifters have been through the trials and tribulations and don't need to be educated on the subject.
In the end, I stand by what I said earlier... these non-professional juicers are a bunch of posers. How are they posers? From the simple fact that they take steroids for no other reason than to be bigger than the rest. Why be bigger than the others at the gym? What are you trying to prove? Who are they competing with? Or, are they simply trying to prove something to themselves? Because if it is the later, that may be an indicator of a mental issue. I've had plenty of friends in college that juiced, and these were all common topics.
You ask the average roider if they juice and I'm willing to bet they would deny it (unless you are a friend or in their circle of trust). Why deny it? What is there to hide? Because they don't want people to see what is obviously happening (their size is largely attributed to roids). That is what posers do.
Last edited by latino_esq; 09-24-2014 at 11:46 AM..
Reason: editing
Do you know the difference between protein via meat legumes, nuts, spinach, etc and protein shakes?
Yes. Protein from protein shakes is actually "better" than from nuts, meat, and spinach. Whey and Casein are milk protein, which is the most biologically compatible protein for humans. It goes like this:
Milk
Eggs
Meat
Nuts
Plants
Whey and Casein are milk protein that is isolated.
Tapping out of this absolutely ridiculous thread. Mods should close this too - has nothing to do with OP's original point.
Why so bossy?
Scope creep within threads happen all the time. It can be fun.
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